Getting More and Better Insights, with Irma Tragesser
Update: 2025-02-14
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Dave speaks with Irma Tragesser, an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy, on how she shifted her approach to get more and better insights from her team.
Applications to the Coaching for Leaders Academy will close on March 14, 2025. Visit the Academy page for details and to apply.
Applications to the Coaching for Leaders Academy will close on March 14, 2025. Visit the Academy page for details and to apply.
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Transcript
00:00:00
[MUSIC]
00:00:06
>> Hi, Dave Stahofiak here, host of the Coaching for Leaders Podcast.
00:00:10
I have two really big parts of my work.
00:00:13
One is the most visible part you hear on the podcast each week.
00:00:17
And second is what you don't hear on the podcast, at least not typically.
00:00:21
The work I'm doing each day to support our members who are navigating inflection points in their leadership.
00:00:29
Today and a few times in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to take you behind the scenes a bit and share a few conversations with our Academy members on how they're moving forward as leaders.
00:00:42
We are opening the Academy for applications again on March 7th.
00:00:46
You can find more details by going to coachingforleaders.com/academy.
00:00:52
The first chat here is with Irma Thragasur on how she started to get more and better insights from her team as she took on a big executive role.
00:01:03
Here's our chat.
00:01:04
I'm speaking today with Irma Thragasur.
00:01:06
She is one of our Academy alums and an executive in health care.
00:01:12
Irma, hello, it's good to see you.
00:01:14
>> It's so good to see you, Dave.
00:01:16
>> I've been looking forward to this conversation and talking about just where we've been in last year and working together and your experience in the Academy.
00:01:25
But maybe we could just start with a bit about your work and what's keeping you busy right now.
00:01:32
>> Yeah, no, thank you.
00:01:33
Thank you for the question, Dave.
00:01:35
And thank you for having me here.
00:01:36
It's such a privilege, really.
00:01:38
Yeah, so as you said, I work in health care and at the moment, there is many things that we're working on to support patients and physicians.
00:01:47
And so what keeps me up at night and hopefully not many nights, it's the fact that I have a new responsibility.
00:01:56
So I just acquire another group and in a little bit, I will explain how I got there and how the Academy helped me get there.
00:02:04
But with now two different organizations that I'm leading, I am very busy trying to keep things going at the speed that we're going.
00:02:14
But in also dealing with the different maturities.
00:02:18
So one group is a little bit more mature than the other ones.
00:02:21
So it's a little bit of juggling between those two different roles.
00:02:26
And so hopefully to get to an stability here in a few months.
00:02:30
>> Two really different organizations.
00:02:32
And it's so much the reality of leadership for all of us that we're often working with different teams, different parts of the organization and maturity,
00:02:42
experience, all of that set a really different level.
00:02:44
And that, which is a good lead into maybe how you and I first connected.
00:02:49
And first of all, I'm curious, how did you come across the podcast originally?
00:02:53
Do you recall how you did?
00:02:54
>> Yes, yes.
00:02:56
So it was almost three years ago that I got promoted to the level that I'm in, which is higher executive level.
00:03:05
And to be honest, I was struggling.
00:03:07
Like the first year was really difficult.
00:03:10
Not only I came to a group that was mature and I was very new in the space.
00:03:15
But also I didn't have any transition.
00:03:18
So I had to learn a lot of things.
00:03:19
And we were having a lot of situations happening at that time.
00:03:24
So the first year was really, really a struggle.
00:03:27
And so I was looking for resources, right?
00:03:29
That to help me get through the different situations that I was experiencing.
00:03:34
And I was feeling pretty, pretty lonely in the new level, learning all these new things.
00:03:39
And feeling that nobody liked me at that moment.
00:03:42
So I was making decisions and of the world of the right ones.
00:03:45
And I got to a large church and my church has a group that dedicates to leadership.
00:03:53
And you know, provide leadership tools.
00:03:55
And so they put one of your podcasts in one of the newsletters that they send out.
00:03:59
>> Oh, no kidding.
00:04:00
>> I remember that, yeah, that day I was like, oh, this is great.
00:04:04
And I don't even remember which episode was, but I remember how it made me feel.
00:04:09
It made me feel like, okay, well, there is hope.
00:04:12
And other people is going through the same things.
00:04:14
I'm going through, I probably should go back and look exactly what it was.
00:04:18
But I do remember the feeling.
00:04:19
And so from there, I just got hooked.
00:04:22
>> Wow, how interesting.
00:04:24
And how cool that your church is looking at podcasts and recommending resources like that.
00:04:29
But you said a really key word there, hope, like how we all need that.
00:04:34
And we want that in our professional journeys and in our learning and our growth, right?
00:04:40
And that leads to how you and I got connected, too, because you decided at some point to apply for the Academy when you think about like hope.
00:04:50
What did you hope to get from this and experience of this?
00:04:54
>> That's a great question, Dave.
00:04:55
So yeah, it was like a year in that I, you know, we listening to the podcast and then you in some of the recent ones that I was listening, I just started talking about the Academy and I was really intrigued.
00:05:06
And so I apply, you know, you have the link to save your curious about the Academy, just send us your email.
00:05:13
And so I did that.
00:05:14
And honestly, I was not expecting to get anything.
00:05:18
And I actually have forgotten that I have sent that.
00:05:21
And I think it was a couple of months later when I got a message from you.
00:05:26
And I was like, totally star strong.
00:05:28
Wow, and he was so kind.
00:05:30
And you know, you were, and you asked me, like, what did I learn from the podcast?
00:05:35
And so yeah, so it was, it was a really great connection.
00:05:39
It felt really good to hear from you.
00:05:41
So we start corresponding and then you put me in the list right for interest in the Academy on 24.
00:05:49
So that was probably in 2023 when I contacted you.
00:05:52
>> And you did ultimately decide to apply.
00:05:55
We talked, we decided it would be the right fit together.
00:05:59
And you jumped in.
00:06:02
As you started, I mean, and as we all start in the Academy and work together, a big part of it is defining what we want the future to look like.
00:06:11
Two to three years out and getting a vision down on paper.
00:06:16
All of us working together to clarify that for each other.
00:06:19
So we're a little bit, we're doing it on our own, a little bit, we're doing it with the group, a little bit with me.
00:06:23
And as you went through that process and started thinking about where you wanted to zero it on, what did you decide that you wanted to shift?
00:06:31
>> Yeah, so my vision was, you know, had different dimensions I said.
00:06:36
They were dimensions on I wanted to be a better leader for my people.
00:06:39
I also wanted to be a high altitude leader because I aspire to have high roles in my organization.
00:06:48
And so as we started talking, right?
00:06:51
Like first, I think the most important thing for me was to put that in paper.
00:06:55
I mean, I had all these thoughts.
00:06:57
I kind of have all these ideas of what I want to be.
00:06:59
But when we had to put it in paper and then socialize it with our cohort, it just made it real.
00:07:05
And then the breakdown into what are the actions that is going to take me to get there, right?
00:07:11
And in the period that we established the vision for.
00:07:15
So one of the things, my very first one was wanting to be a coach like leader.
00:07:21
And I know that's right because that's one of the examples that you provide, right?
00:07:25
Like, oh, well, and I think that is one of the topics that come up more.
00:07:29
But for me, it was just so important to start making strides towards that because I started to get more direct reports and I want to make sure that I really understand them and coach them where they want it to be,
00:07:44
right?
00:07:44
Based on their aspiration, but also on what needs to be done at work.
00:07:49
And so that was my first one to be a coach like leader.
00:07:52
And my first action was to just very simple to ask more open-ended questions to my direct reports one time a day in one, one, one.
00:08:03
Yeah.
00:08:03
And one of the really interesting things that I find myself doing in our groups and you experience this too, they're almost trying to get people to do less,
00:08:14
right?
00:08:14
Not trying to do it in every interaction, not trying to do it all the time.
00:08:17
Just like once a day starting to ask a follow-up question, right?
00:08:23
How did that work for you?
00:08:24
Like, as you started to do that, how did that feel initially?
00:08:27
Well, and I think this is going to get into one of the biggest learnings that I had from the academy into, you know, exactly what you said.
00:08:37
Going big and thinking that you just have to tackle everything all the time, right?
00:08:42
To just not just one time and it feels like it's not enough, right?
00:08:47
At the beginning, I think the first week was like really uncomfortable because like really just just one time and just less than five minutes.
00:08:54
That is, it was just really interesting.
00:08:57
But as I started doing it consistently, it just started becoming very interesting second nature.
00:09:04
So as intentionally I was doing it once a day, right, to one of the one-on-ones, then I started finding myself doing it in other ones, like more naturally.
00:09:13
So that was like really, really cool to observe and realize, oh, wait, I just did it.
00:09:18
And they didn't think about it.
00:09:20
Yeah, yeah, cool.
00:09:22
And as you started to do that more consistently, you caught yourself doing it a little more even when you weren't thinking about it.
00:09:29
How did people respond?
00:09:30
And what happened as you changed that dynamic of it?
00:09:33
Yeah, that was the most amazing thing for me because people actually started noticing.
00:09:38
And I started noticing that I get more information and better information by doing that, right?
00:09:45
Like when in the past, my tendency is to kind of come and, you know, I have an idea a little bit more directive, right?
00:09:51
And when I took a step back and start asking more questions and open ended questions, like people, like surprise me, right?
00:09:58
I start finding things that I'm like, oh, I didn't know that, right?
00:10:01
And I never thought about asking about that specific thing, but they were volunteering information.
00:10:06
So that was really cool and helped me, right?
00:10:09
Like actually helped me help them better.
00:10:11
But yeah, I think they started feeling more listened to, right?
00:10:17
And more, our meetings were more productive overall, I feel.
00:10:21
Cool.
00:10:22
And it's really interesting for any of us in any relationship is like, we step back a little bit.
00:10:28
We create a little bit more space and margin.
00:10:30
We ask sometimes it's so, I mean, it's, it's really interesting how like just one more question.
00:10:36
I think back to Michael Bungay-Stander's work and his invitation in the coach and avid, like just be curious a moment longer, not 30 minutes longer, just ask one more question.
00:10:46
And how interesting that is you started to do that?
00:10:49
Not only did you hear more, but then like people started volunteering more information of things you didn't even know about going on the organization, it's just really fascinating.
00:10:57
It is.
00:10:58
It is.
00:10:59
And yeah, and it's so simple, right?
00:11:00
Like it's the questions don't have to be so complicated, just very simple questions.
00:11:05
I think also the thing that was a little bit hard was the silence, right?
00:11:09
Just say the question and then wait.
00:11:12
And then people sometimes like, it needs that time to think, right?
00:11:15
If they are going to say more.
00:11:16
And so, but yeah, that was another piece that was interesting as I went through that particular commitment.
00:11:22
Yeah, it is, it is a little awkward at the beginning.
00:11:25
It's the getting started.
00:11:26
And it's a little awkward sometimes for the other party too of like, oh, I'm used to you just jumping in and saying things and telling me what to do and all that.
00:11:33
And so it takes, it takes a little bit of time just to just one of the reasons we just do it once a day.
00:11:38
Like, it takes a little time just to kind of get used to it on all parties and get comfortable with that dynamic.
00:11:42
Correct.
00:11:43
Yes.
00:11:44
As you went forward, what else did you decide to do?
00:11:49
Yeah, so after this commitment, I started to look more at the other things that will help me get, get closer to my vision.
00:11:57
And so the next one and that it's, it's dear to my heart because as I said, acquiring new, a new organization that has a very different limit than the other organization that I am still leading,
00:12:10
you know, require a lot of jumping.
00:12:12
Like I felt my, at some point I felt my brain was like going from one topic to another topic that were totally different topics.
00:12:18
And so my second commitment was about compartmentalization.
00:12:22
And so for that one, I just started the day just looking at my calendar and then just taking the time to just review what was happening in the day and if possible,
00:12:33
like grouping things right in different ways or seeing what things can be done later and make sure that I give my brain that space to jump from one to another and taking time in between meetings to take a deep breath,
00:12:49
kind of collect myself and be ready for the next topic, which before I was not doing, I was just like meeting, meeting, meeting.
00:12:56
And so just having that action once a day to just take a deep breath, see where I was, what was I feeling and how I was kind of taking the rest of the day,
00:13:06
it just made a huge difference in how I present myself.
00:13:10
And the next meeting.
00:13:11
Yeah.
00:13:12
It's, it's like one of the realities of leadership, I don't think we talk enough about and especially in the kind of role you have that you might have eight meetings in a day and it's not just the time,
00:13:29
it's one meeting is celebrating someone like having, getting an incredible recognition.
00:13:36
And the next very next meeting is giving someone difficult feedback and then three hours later, you're getting some tough feedback yourself and then and then later in the day, it's like a celebration and a client initiative,
00:13:50
it's, it's so many different kinds of emotions and like mental states and all that that so many of us need to jump between each day.
00:13:59
And you really zeroed in.
00:14:00
I remember us talking about Marshall Goldsmith's concept of singular empathy of like, okay, there's all this stuff going on, but let me zero in on the here and now and you created the space to just,
00:14:10
to just challenge yourself to do that and, and, and it opened up a bunch.
00:14:15
And, and, and being present, right, because I think that was a part that I started feeling.
00:14:19
I was not doing, right, like I was thinking, oh my gosh, what is the next meeting or still bringing what it was in the previous meeting.
00:14:26
And so having that time and that space to collect myself and, and the intentionality, I think of of being present at the next meeting, right,
00:14:36
just made a, a big difference on how I felt and how I made others feel as well.
00:14:43
One thing you shared with me recently is coming back now a year later from when you wrote the vision and usually we think about the vision that we write at the beginning of like,
00:14:54
we do write it future oriented like two to three years out.
00:14:57
And I think it's interesting coming back to it now and looking at it a year later, like, how many things have started to happen, right?
00:15:04
Yes.
00:15:05
Yes.
00:15:06
It was almost like magic.
00:15:07
It's not magic.
00:15:08
It was work, but the work didn't felt like work because they progress, right?
00:15:12
Like I started seeing progress towards certain things and also developing a confidence, right?
00:15:19
Because as we started with analyzing and recognizing our strengths, also positioning ourselves to the opportunities that that happened.
00:15:27
So I, I don't know if, if I want to not done the academy, I don't think the opportunity, I would have seized the opportunities that we're passing in front of, because I think the opportunities are always there is always when the individuals are ready to take them,
00:15:41
right?
00:15:41
And so I think what the academy did for me was getting me into that mindset and helping me start changing some things that were critical for me to be ready for when the opportunity presented itself.
00:15:54
It's interesting what you said that it was work, of course, and yet it didn't really feel like work.
00:16:00
And I'm curious about that, like, what is it that you think made it not feel so much like work?
00:16:05
Well, I think that to me, the putting the things in paper, right, like just actually committing to something and having the clear vision.
00:16:15
So there were many ideas before the academy, there were many ideas, so I want to do this and I want to do that.
00:16:20
You know, and some of them were related and some of them were not, but once we follow the structure of creating a vision and then committing to it and then doing little things right along the way,
00:16:33
I found myself, I was focused on that, that I just didn't even pay attention or the things that were like the noise right around me was not necessarily as loud.
00:16:43
So I was able to concentrate on that and then things started happening and in talking to my peers in the cohort, it was like for everybody.
00:16:51
So it's, that's why I said, it feels like magic, but it's not magic.
00:16:55
It's just, I guess, we're focused on intentional on the things that are going to make us have progress and that is being shown and recognized, I think, by others,
00:17:05
which leads to the opportunities.
00:17:08
Yeah.
00:17:09
Indeed.
00:17:10
And I think many of us have had the experience.
00:17:12
I certainly did before doing this, too, of going through an exercise of writing something down, maybe even writing a bit of a vision out of like, okay, where I want to be professionally.
00:17:20
Here's what I need to learn.
00:17:22
And then so often, we end up kind of throwing in a drawer or a digital or file somewhere and we maybe come back to it once a year or whatever and we haven't done a lot with it.
00:17:32
And I think one of the things that you and everyone else did so well is just like the consistency and like the environment of doing that.
00:17:39
And of course, like by design, we write the visions and then we keep coming back to them and keep talking to them every 60 days.
00:17:45
We review them.
00:17:47
We look at them.
00:17:48
We talk about it.
00:17:49
We dialogue.
00:17:50
And so it's really like very much a living document and it's something that like it's such power getting down a paper.
00:17:56
But then it's the action behind it to make sure it actually happens.
00:17:59
Yes.
00:18:00
And the direction, right, is we are moving to our direction when before you felt like many directions.
00:18:06
Yeah.
00:18:07
Indeed.
00:18:08
You've listened to the podcast for a while.
00:18:10
So you know, I'd love to ask people what they've changed their minds on as you went through this experience over the last year, I'm curious for you, what if anything did you change your mind on?
00:18:21
Yeah.
00:18:22
So, I mean, I always thought you have to try harder and you have to try bigger, right?
00:18:27
Like dream big and do big things.
00:18:29
So if you have a goal, like you have to work hard at this goal every day all the time, right?
00:18:36
And so again, it was a part of the shift just coming back and say, well, you don't have to work on everything at the same time for every single time is you can start a small and just being consistent.
00:18:51
And so that is the thing that I think is going to stay and remain with me the rest of my life because it doesn't apply only to leadership, but to everything in life, right?
00:19:01
Like, if you want to start something, you start small and be consistent.
00:19:05
And so that's where I changed my mind.
00:19:08
So many times I failed just because I started too big and my eyes were bigger than my stomach.
00:19:15
I wanted to go big and I couldn't sustain it for a long time.
00:19:21
Yeah.
00:19:22
I appreciate you sharing that.
00:19:23
And I think it is a bit of a trap a lot of us fall into who are high achievers who want to do well and we tend to set the bar really high for ourselves.
00:19:31
Like, as we should, right?
00:19:32
We want to challenge ourselves and have ambitious plans.
00:19:35
And then we just sort of naturally try to jump in and do it all at once.
00:19:40
And I'm speaking to myself here too and boy, have I learned to like back off for myself of like, okay, start small.
00:19:50
And because like anytime I start really big on something, I'll get like a couple of days into it a week or two.
00:19:55
And I can get the adrenaline and the energy going, but then it's not sustainable.
00:19:59
And we, I think a lot of us run into that.
00:20:03
But just by starting small, making it sustainable, making it something that actually we can do regularly and show up with it just shifts in so many great ways.
00:20:10
Yirma, thank you so much for the privilege to work with you.
00:20:13
And I so appreciate you sharing your story with us.
00:20:17
What a pleasure it's been to serve you.
00:20:19
Thank you, Dave.
00:20:20
I appreciate you.
00:20:22
We all want to do it all, don't we?
00:20:24
I think about what Yirma said of taking on that new position and spending the first year, trying to do a lot of everything and not getting a lot of traction.
00:20:33
It's exactly why when our Academy cohorts begin our work together, we start by getting really clear on what's important to each leader and get it down on paper and then zero in on three focus areas that will help most.
00:20:48
And then we begin one thing at a time to do exactly what Yirma said.
00:20:53
Start small and be consistent.
00:20:56
That curve, if you're at an inflection point right now, and ready to get moving, the coaching for leaders Academy may be the right fit for you.
00:21:04
Just go over to coachingforleaders.com/academy and you'll find more details there, plus you'll see a place on that page to request an invitation when we next open applications on March 7th.
00:21:18
If you do that, I'll make sure you get an invitation just like Yirma did and I will consider you if you decide to apply.
00:21:26
Thanks so much for listening and remember, leaders aren't born, they're made.
00:21:30
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00:21:38
