He Wants it Everyday, She Wants it Never
atualizar: 2024-02-05
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Descrição
They find themselves at an erotic stalemate. Married for 20 years with four children, they have lost their way with each other. He wants it all the time, and she seems to want it never. Esther encourages them to create sexual invitations rather than nightly demands.
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Transcrição
00:00:00
None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perrell.
00:00:05
Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session.
00:00:09
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed.
00:00:16
But their voices and their stories are real.
00:00:25
Mismatched sexual desire or desire discrepancy is one of the most common problems that couples bring to sex therapy.
00:00:37
She just never really enjoys it.
00:00:38
Which is kind of depressing for me because pleasing my partner is, like, number one goal in sex.
00:00:44
I have a very, very low need for sexual anything, if I'm honest.
00:00:50
I feel like he is in the mood always.
00:00:53
Ideally, I would say I'm with every day.
00:00:58
At the extremes, it's one person saying, "If I never had sex again, I would notice it that I wouldn't miss it for a moment."
00:01:07
And the other person saying, "If I had it my way, I would want to have sex almost every day, if not every day."
00:01:14
One person never interested, one person always interested, that kind of real pulls to the corners.
00:01:23
And this is what happens in this couple.
00:01:25
The problem really came when we were done with babies because that's when he assumed that our sex life wouldn't start up again like normal.
00:01:33
And I think he never realized that those years, I was kind of just going along and going along.
00:01:39
Recently, because we've been trying to have more, we're probably, I mean, not every day, but it's pretty close, like, 20 times a month.
00:01:47
So, I mean, the frequency at this point is not an issue, it's just, that's case scenario, it's not uncomfortable for her.
00:01:56
They have tried quite a few things lately, red books, consulted people, watched videos, educated themselves, and they have begun to understand that while it looks like it's about a mismatch desire,
00:02:12
there is way more that is occurring at the heart of their erotic stalemate.
00:02:19
We've been married now for 17 years and we have four children.
00:02:23
We somehow miss this part about each other's somehow, even though we knew everything else.
00:02:29
- Welcome.
00:02:33
- Thank you.
00:02:37
- It's nice to meet you.
00:02:38
- Nice to meet you.
00:02:40
And tell me what has helped, what has made a difference.
00:02:44
I don't even know yet on what.
00:02:46
But...
00:02:48
- I think for me, just knowing that sex is a kind of an expression of love for me, and it's like how I feel like a really deep connection with her.
00:03:01
And I think there's just, I had this, I had this stereotype, I was just, you know, guys want to have sex, they want to have sex.
00:03:06
And I think that reading about like that is being kind of connected to our relationship, I mean, an important part of our relationship kind of helped like both of us kind of view it differently.
00:03:19
- So both of you?
00:03:22
Did it change anything for you?
00:03:23
I mean, yeah, I don't think we ever talked about like what sex was for our relationship before.
00:03:32
And I don't know, like so I feel like just through, I guess, individual counseling and marriage counseling, like we've learned to communicate better and express that.
00:03:41
So like, I don't think I ever really realized why it was important before.
00:03:47
- So when you understood that sex for him is not just about getting off, but getting close.
00:03:56
- Mm-hmm.
00:03:57
How did that land on you?
00:03:59
- Um, it's hard because I understand that's what he, like how he feels connected, but it's not something I,
00:04:11
sex is like, I don't know.
00:04:14
It's a very rarely pleasurable experience, it's not really something I'm particularly interested in and I could very well do without it for most of the time and everything.
00:04:27
Um, can I ask you something?
00:04:31
Because I understand that sex is an issue and we came to talk about sex.
00:04:37
What is the issue?
00:04:38
Or how do you define the issue?
00:04:41
- I guess like, in the last year we've definitely started having sex more regularly, I guess, you know, because we've known it's important, but I really like to make it pleasurable for my partner.
00:04:55
And that's something that we just can't seem to make happen.
00:05:00
I want her to enjoy it, like the same way I enjoy it or at least make it not uncomfortable.
00:05:06
Like, you know, then it kind of leaves the other problems because then I start feeling bad that she's uncomfortable and then it kind of goes off the rails.
00:05:13
- How about you going, take me on the rails?
00:05:16
- Yeah, like if I guess that's been the one negative and kind of talking about it more and like understanding more is like, I got way more aware of when she's just kind of doing it to do it and that makes me feel bad and then it kind of ends things like,
00:05:35
you know, I don't want to stop.
00:05:36
- Yeah.
00:05:37
- And?
00:05:39
- And just, yeah, that's it.
00:05:42
I mean.
00:05:42
- You roll over, you talk about it, you weep, you get mad.
00:05:46
- I mean, I usually go and finish myself because like, that at least kind of helps me sleep and then I don't know, I definitely feel bad,
00:05:56
but I also just, I know it's, you know, it's not her fault, like it's not intentional, it's not, yeah, like it's not something that she's doing on purpose to me.
00:06:05
But it's also, I guess because I was looking for that closest and didn't get it, like I know that I'm not super cuddly or like really happy when I'm come to bed.
00:06:16
I try to consciously like still like, you know, cuddle her, but it's just, it's just not the same, I guess.
00:06:23
And for you, the issue is, I saw the issue as like just how different we view what sex is in our lives and our importance because we used to fight because the frequency was a problem.
00:06:43
Like, he used to get upset and take it very personally, like if I didn't want to as if it was, you know, I found him unattractive or I wasn't happy with our marriage,
00:06:53
which neither was true.
00:06:55
So now the frequency is probably what you're okay with.
00:07:04
The frequency is not my preference, right?
00:07:08
And like sometimes I know going in, it's not going to be great for my end and I'm just kind of being there because I understand that this is important and that's what he wants and expects.
00:07:20
And then sometimes we muddle through it, I find and then sometimes we don't because especially he gets, I guess he's more aware, like he said.
00:07:30
And how is that different for you between him not knowing what your experience is and him checking in with you noticing you're not into it and then.
00:07:44
I feel bad, I mean, I always feel bad because I understand that this is what he needs.
00:07:50
Do you feel differently that he's noticing you?
00:07:55
Is that better that he's more aware of you, more attuned to you?
00:08:02
I don't know really, I mean, I feel like it ends up more or less with more disappointment.
00:08:12
So I don't know if that's like for him.
00:08:15
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's, I don't really feel like it's changed much for me.
00:08:21
Okay.
00:08:23
So I have ten questions, maybe fifteen for that matter.
00:08:29
There's a lot of things I want to make sure I understand and they're not in order of importance, but you're using words and these words represent entire experiences and I don't know what they represent for you.
00:08:45
So first word is sex.
00:08:48
What sex are we talking about?
00:08:51
I mean, it's normally PIV sex or sometimes oral sex, but I mean, for me, like,
00:09:02
it doesn't really matter what we're doing, like, you know, if I can make her feel good, like, that's like the best for me.
00:09:13
Which it doesn't, I feel like it's never really happened, but that's almost more important than like my own orgasm or my own climax.
00:09:24
When you say, I've never, I don't feel that I've ever given how much pleasure.
00:09:31
What's that like for you?
00:09:34
I mean, it's disappointing.
00:09:36
It's frustrating.
00:09:38
I want her to experience the way I'm experiencing it.
00:09:42
I think recently she's like, well, tell me what does it feel like for you?
00:09:46
And I'm like, I can't even compare it to anything.
00:09:49
I can't think of something that is anywhere near the level of an orgasm for me.
00:09:55
Like if she does orgasm, I feel like, I don't know, you've described it as a burp, like, I want her to kind of have that same, like,
00:10:06
elation and that, just that feeling of, like, bliss and closeness and everything afterwards.
00:10:14
Is it a loss for you?
00:10:17
Do you experience it as a loss?
00:10:20
I guess a little, she tends to just kind of get in her own way and get in her own head and literally if there's anything I could do to help her get past that I would,
00:10:33
I just don't know what to do.
00:10:35
No, I'm going to do, I'm going to take a pen and paper because I have too many things that are thrown into my head and they're going too fast.
00:10:44
Okay, so I'll tell you words that are on my page, right?
00:10:49
I'm going to ask you, define sex.
00:10:53
Oh, I guess penis in the vagina.
00:11:00
And that ends with an orgasm or should end with an orgasm?
00:11:05
I guess, yes.
00:11:07
When I ask them to define sex, Mrs.
00:11:15
Hall very much performance driven, outcome driven model.
00:11:21
Another way of thinking about sexuality is that sex is not just something you do, sex is a place you go.
00:11:27
With yourself inside yourself, with a partner or partners, and that it is an experience.
00:11:35
And that is where I hope the conversation can go because it's become so restricted.
00:11:41
Penance in a vagina that ends with an orgasm and so much pressure exists between them about that.
00:11:50
One thing is quickly becoming clear to me is how to invite them to shift from a performance driven way of thinking about sex to a pleasure focus on sex.
00:12:04
What feels good rather than what works?
00:12:09
And do you ever have sexual activity that isn't meant to end in an orgasm?
00:12:24
I guess not.
00:12:30
You know, we'll cuddle on the couch or hug or kiss or definitely not intended to be sexual.
00:12:40
I mean, one thing that we've kind of been working through is she has like a pretty strong bristle reaction to touch in general.
00:12:53
So we've been trying to non-sexual touch more, just hugging and kissing throughout the day when we see each other just to kind of...
00:13:03
And does that feel different to you or that too could be?
00:13:08
I'm fine with that, because for the longest time, I would not do much of that because it came with the demand.
00:13:18
And I felt like he would interpret then and then he'd be like, but you did that before, so why aren't you interested now?
00:13:27
Or he would accuse me of like trying to tease him.
00:13:30
And so I kind of just backed off and like just wouldn't do anything.
00:13:34
And we do anything that would turn him on because the minute I turn him on, he's going to want more.
00:13:40
And if I give him a kiss, it's going to have to go all the way and so I'd rather not give him a kiss and not have to endure.
00:13:47
Yeah, I'd rather not build up the expectation unless I know I'm willing to...
00:13:52
Like, I have to commit in my mind and like...
00:13:55
So I'm kind of like, I would have to mentally be able to say I can sustain it all the way, all the way till bedtime.
00:14:01
But you think if I give him a signal at five, he's going to have an expectation at 10.
00:14:06
Yes.
00:14:07
And so I...
00:14:10
I would rather lower expectations and then be pleasantly surprised right at the end versus having this problem.
00:14:19
So she just described sex as the problem.
00:14:28
And in this dynamic where one person is the pursuer and one person withholds or is avoidant, you can instantly see this negative cognition,
00:14:40
this thought that says, "Stop right in the beginning because if you give him the slightest, he's going to want the whole thing."
00:14:51
This is part of the vigilance.
00:14:55
Each constantly tracking and the other vigilantly following every sign in the body, the eyes,
00:15:05
the behaviors of the partner.
00:15:09
So you have a whole strategy?
00:15:12
I tried, but you know, I mean, I don't necessarily know how effective it is because we've been finding out this on and off for a while now.
00:15:22
I think that's one thing that I've learned though that it's something that we need to do during the day and that that will kind of help normalize the touch to that.
00:15:34
At 10 when I go to touch her, like it's not an immediate shutter, like Crystal, which obviously is no fun to be on the receiving end of that.
00:15:41
And so it's not fun for her because she's reacting the way so.
00:15:45
Can I ask you something?
00:15:47
Do you ever approach her after you have masturbated?
00:15:51
So that you don't come with an acute edge?
00:15:56
Approach her for sex or just for both.
00:16:02
Not usually for sex.
00:16:05
But even for sex.
00:16:06
Actually, it's more pertinent if it's for sex.
00:16:09
Because one of the dynamics is your pent-up, she tracks your being pent-up, she decides what strategy to use in relation to your pent-upness.
00:16:22
Her mindset is primarily about how to avoid it, what's the least I can do, and you is what the least I can get in quotation.
00:16:34
That's the mindset, that's not even the bodies.
00:16:39
Have you approached her when you're not in a state where you think I depend on her for relief and for connection?
00:16:48
It's both.
00:16:50
So that I can be relieved by myself and I can connect with her without this being the central plot.
00:16:58
It's just a question, there's not a prescription, but have you had that experience of decoupling?
00:17:04
I think not intentionally, but I do think that does happen.
00:17:10
And because of that, whatever reason, I'm not expecting anything.
00:17:17
And then sometimes she will initiate, actually.
00:17:22
Yeah.
00:17:23
That does happen.
00:17:25
And you don't expect that she has freedom, she has space.
00:17:31
She can want because she is not only responding to your wanting.
00:17:40
At this moment when it's polarized like this, there's your wanting and her not wanting.
00:17:47
If you can approach her, not from a place of that kind of wanting, then she can get in touch with what do I want rather than just how do I manage what he wants?
00:17:59
Which is what she has done, how many years together?
00:18:02
Twenty years.
00:18:03
So she's been doing that for about 20 years, managing your wanting.
00:18:07
Does that resonate?
00:18:09
Yeah, it does.
00:18:12
Put it in your own words.
00:18:15
For me, sex is kind of a chore.
00:18:18
It is something that is expected and like I have never experienced what he, like I sometimes think that he's like exaggerating it just to like make me feel like this is what you're missing out on in some sense because I have,
00:18:33
like I just have never ever felt the need, like I'm just kind of like, all right, that was okay.
00:18:39
But it definitely was like the way that I feel like it's almost like, yeah.
00:18:43
And okay, what happens in your body?
00:18:48
Tell me the body.
00:18:48
I mean, it's like a little rush, but it's also very quick.
00:18:53
That's the orgasm.
00:18:55
Yeah.
00:18:56
But the pleasure, the pleasure is not the orgasm, the whole experience.
00:18:59
What's it like?
00:19:01
What do you experience a heart rate increase, a sweaty palm, a state of a rousal, an experience of desire,
00:19:11
a closeness to with him, an openness of your body, a change in your breath?
00:19:20
I don't know.
00:19:21
I think I get a little flush.
00:19:23
Don't look at him.
00:19:24
Don't talk about sex and look at him.
00:19:27
That's been the problem for me too long.
00:19:30
You can look at me or you can look at me.
00:19:33
I don't know how it else, I've told him this before and I think he thinks it's odd as well.
00:19:39
But I can sometimes orgasm with my mind without doing a single.
00:19:44
I can just be sitting here.
00:19:46
It's also not.
00:19:47
I've never felt that I feel like the peaks that we talk about.
00:19:51
But I don't need to do anything.
00:19:54
So I can just kind of build up enough in my mind and then it kind of happens.
00:19:59
Like, okay, for me.
00:20:02
But that is actually something very useful for you to know and very powerful.
00:20:08
That speaks to the opposite of how you think of yourself.
00:20:12
You've decided he's sexual, I'm not.
00:20:16
If you can bring yourself to orgasm just with your mind, imagine how sexual you are.
00:20:25
There are two simultaneous realities here.
00:20:31
One is that, contrary to the way that they have organized themselves, he's sexual, she's not.
00:20:39
The fact is that she's orgasmic and she can bring herself to climax just from thoughts.
00:20:46
So physically, this is not the issue.
00:20:49
But on some level, his needs are too much at the center of her experience.
00:20:56
On the other end, though, even though she physically is very responsive, it's not of interest to her.
00:21:05
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00:21:13
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00:23:29
I have a very, probably, strange relationship with...
00:23:38
Because as a whole, I find sex very just like I usually don't like watching an on television.
00:23:44
I don't really like being like around it.
00:23:47
Like I kind of just don't want to deal with it.
00:23:50
When you watch it, you feel what?
00:23:53
Mostly uncomfortable.
00:23:54
But you see, that word uncomfortable, I've written it in big.
00:23:59
But the uncomfortable has a thousand facets.
00:24:03
What is uncomfortable for you?
00:24:05
There's...
00:24:09
I should be here seeing this.
00:24:13
This is something that...
00:24:15
It's private.
00:24:17
Yeah, it's private.
00:24:19
I should not be the third party here watching this.
00:24:23
So when I watch it, my discomfort is...
00:24:29
It's like I get very awkward.
00:24:31
It's just like this childish...
00:24:34
I think that's the best way to put it.
00:24:35
It's very silly, very...
00:24:38
I don't know.
00:24:39
I know he doesn't like it.
00:24:40
But I also don't know how to stop.
00:24:42
Is it gross?
00:24:44
Yeah, it's like a cringe right now.
00:24:47
Is it gross or is it dirty?
00:24:52
It is gross.
00:24:53
I don't like a lot of...
00:24:54
Not just for this.
00:24:55
I'm not into any kind of human bodily functions.
00:24:57
They're all kind of gross.
00:24:59
I've had children.
00:25:00
It's kind of a mess.
00:25:02
The human body just makes all kinds of mess.
00:25:04
I really don't like that.
00:25:07
In general, there's a lot of hand...
00:25:09
I make him hand wash a lot in between things.
00:25:11
Because I can't deal with the idea of that touching me.
00:25:15
So yes, it is definitely gross.
00:25:18
And when you are on the couch...
00:25:21
When you're cuddling on the couch, is that...
00:25:24
I don't mind that.
00:25:26
That cuddling and touching, like I said, as long as it doesn't require a absolute...
00:25:30
This is a firm yes now.
00:25:32
I'm okay with it.
00:25:34
I'm okay, doesn't mean I like it.
00:25:38
I enjoy it.
00:25:40
It feels good.
00:25:42
There's a lot of other things besides I can tolerate it.
00:25:45
It's very narrow.
00:25:47
For being as involved with him, it needs more.
00:25:52
Not more frequency.
00:25:54
Got for bit.
00:25:55
More quality.
00:25:57
More ease.
00:25:58
More enjoyment.
00:26:00
Absolutely.
00:26:03
I like to think of myself as a warm person.
00:26:07
I don't think I'm a very touchy feeling person in general.
00:26:12
I definitely am with our children.
00:26:15
But I'm not in general a very touchy person.
00:26:18
Neither are really my parents for either.
00:26:23
If we had another conversation, I would have wanted to explore further.
00:26:29
Her aversive responses to the human body, the fluids, to her description of children.
00:26:36
What is the disgust that she feels?
00:26:38
And what has she noticed about it?
00:26:41
And I also would have wanted to speak further with her and to explore together what she meant when she says, "I'm not a touchy feeling person."
00:26:49
That is such an expression.
00:26:51
But it connotes a whole experience of...
00:26:54
closeness, connection, boundaries, boundary, intrusion.
00:26:59
What is her experience of touch?
00:27:01
Or what has been her experience growing up with the absence of touch?
00:27:05
Tell me a bit about the background.
00:27:13
Okay.
00:27:14
We'll be here forever.
00:27:17
I'm an only child.
00:27:19
My father passed away a little over, I think it's 10 years, more than 10.
00:27:24
It's like 11 or 12 years now.
00:27:26
My mother is still around.
00:27:27
She lives very close by.
00:27:29
Where they're from?
00:27:31
They're from Taiwan.
00:27:32
And you were born?
00:27:33
I was born here.
00:27:34
They came over for college.
00:27:36
My parents did not have a great marriage.
00:27:39
I felt like my mother was almost always on the brink of wanting to leave.
00:27:43
She did not actually do that until I was in college.
00:27:47
And my parents are just weird, they're weird people, I think.
00:27:53
That's another word.
00:27:55
These are words that represent worlds.
00:27:58
So what is weird for you?
00:28:00
My parents are two people that my mother especially loved work.
00:28:04
And when, "Oh, I'm turning this age now."
00:28:07
And if I don't have a baby, I probably won't have a baby.
00:28:10
Probably should have a baby.
00:28:12
Had a baby.
00:28:14
And the expectation of what a baby was and what a child is was like, I think, completely different from what my mother especially mentally imagined.
00:28:25
She is a very critical person.
00:28:27
She's never happy.
00:28:29
Nothing I did was ever right.
00:28:32
Even my own children are not what she thinks children are.
00:28:37
She spends time with them and then she has nothing but a litany of complaints which are mostly kids just being children.
00:28:43
I see her, talk to her, but I have a thousand strategies and ways to kind of manage and how I want to deal with it.
00:28:51
And I mostly just try to limit what I can where both of us are not.
00:28:56
Managed each other.
00:28:58
With your mother, you manage her criticisms.
00:29:03
With him, you manage his yearning for closeness.
00:29:08
But you're always managing.
00:29:11
Yeah, I try to balance.
00:29:14
I try to balance it so that like you know what they want and you know to manage them.
00:29:19
But there's not enough space for you to ask yourself and what do I want.
00:29:24
I don't know what I want.
00:29:27
You don't know because partly because there's no space to ask to be curious about the question.
00:29:34
And sexual interest or sexual curiosity or sexual desire involves owning the wanting.
00:29:43
Desire is wanting.
00:29:45
And you straddle him, you straddle her, you straddle for children.
00:29:51
But I'm just noticing that you're filled with what these people need, want, feel, think and have to say.
00:30:00
So my image as you were talking is to see this body of yours closing because that's a boundary you can create for all their needs to not penetrate you.
00:30:14
Because they have a lot of them.
00:30:17
Criticisms needs, comments, wishes, frustrations and you tighten and tighten your body.
00:30:28
And it becomes wound up and everything else that touches it, it bristles because it just says, this is my little world that belongs to me.
00:30:39
And everything else stay outside for a minute.
00:30:43
No, it's true.
00:30:46
Yeah.
00:30:46
I'm feeling you as you speak, but I need to know if right, like I feel like all day I'm just bouncing around bouncing what everyone else's things are.
00:30:55
And so like I don't really like know who I am in some way.
00:31:00
I don't think I ever really did because for so long when I was a kid, I built up whatever my mom wanted, right?
00:31:07
Like what was I supposed to be?
00:31:10
And then because I'm an only child, I was very lonely as a kid because you know it was either a study or I was stuck with my parents, you know, like I had friends is up.
00:31:20
But, you know, I wanted the family that I have now.
00:31:23
I wanted like kids and like I didn't want them to feel these things and stuff like that.
00:31:28
So I'm very lucky for having a partner that, you know, much better than what I saw as a marriage for my parents for sure.
00:31:35
How was you done?
00:31:37
He's okay.
00:31:38
He's definitely more affectionate.
00:31:40
My mother, but my father was a compulsive gambler.
00:31:43
You know, he disappear for days and, you know, come back in the middle of the night.
00:31:48
I could hear them fighting or he come in my room crying.
00:31:51
Like, so it was hard.
00:31:53
I mean, I understand on one hand why my mom wanted to get a divorce because it was a lot to deal with like this and, you know, money issues of course.
00:32:02
So I get it to a degree like, but it's also hard when you're growing up hearing that all the time too.
00:32:09
Like, my mom always told me like that's why I'm an only child because she did not have another one because she was afraid that she would have to get divorced.
00:32:17
And like I was such a hard child to deal with that if she had to have two or three, like how would she manage?
00:32:24
My father's gone now.
00:32:26
I mean, we had an odd relationship, I guess.
00:32:31
Like, I mean, he was, I mean, I don't know.
00:32:34
My parents said they were, they were imperfect people and then together they just made like kind of like an imperfect life, right?
00:32:42
Like, you know, they had different things.
00:32:43
And she said, and he was what?
00:32:45
He was, he was strange, my father, he would disappear, he would cry, like my parents would buy me, like my parents always just buy stuff to kind of, you know, if he was gone for a while,
00:32:57
or if he hit me, then they would buy me like a stereo.
00:33:00
Like, you know, so it was kind of just this odd life.
00:33:06
He also had ADHD like.
00:33:09
Yeah, I mean, that's probably why he, that's probably why he gambled.
00:33:12
Yeah.
00:33:13
And you think you have it too?
00:33:14
Oh, I definitely have ADHD.
00:33:16
I'm on medication, but I still don't.
00:33:18
That's what I know.
00:33:19
It's perfect.
00:33:20
I'm struck by how she talked about so many aspects of her childhood, the loneliness, the absence of her father,
00:33:32
and the inconsistencies between harshness and then overindulgent stereo systems, and between the belligerence, between the parents, and the economic tension.
00:33:41
And I wish I had acknowledged some of that, including, she did say in the middle of this, but I wanted a different family,
00:33:51
and I've created that, and I have four children, and I have a fantastic partner with whom I created the marriage that is way different from the one that I grew up with.
00:34:01
And I missed all of that.
00:34:04
There is still so much to talk about.
00:34:11
We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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00:36:30
Have you ever made a connection between the ADHD and the inability to stay in your body when you're being physically?
00:36:41
My one therapist mentioned how that could be a reason why I just float out and everything.
00:36:50
Especially because it's not something that I'm particularly engaged or interested in why to stay in, right?
00:36:57
I'm in some sense, unfortunately, so that's why I like my mind.
00:37:02
Can you take his hands one moment?
00:37:02
Sure.
00:37:02
And put it somewhere on you where you would like it to be.
00:37:07
Turn face each other and you probably haven't.
00:37:10
I just want to, wherever you want it to be.
00:37:18
And now put it at the pressure that you would like it to be.
00:37:23
If you want, close your eyes and do nothing else, but see if you can feel that hand on your knee.
00:37:36
And then just breathe like deep breath in and you can count for three, two,
00:37:47
one as a breath out.
00:37:50
He ain't going to do anything.
00:37:52
He's not going to ask for anything.
00:37:56
It's entirely yours.
00:37:57
You can lift it, you can move it, you can keep it there.
00:38:04
This is about, it's exactly what I want.
00:38:10
You see what makes touch sexual is not where you touch it, nor the involvement of genitals.
00:38:21
It's where it connects with sensuality, with pleasure, with control, not as in being in control,
00:38:34
but as in surrendering.
00:38:36
It's letting go.
00:38:39
That's concept of control.
00:38:41
And when we talk about initiating, this is initiating.
00:38:47
It's not about for play, which is five minutes before the real thing, and the real thing isn't a course, and you know that it worked because there's an orgasm.
00:38:58
That is a very particular script, but it's also very narrow script, and it's one that is not doing you good at this moment.
00:39:09
How is this?
00:39:12
Oh, this is fine, like I mean.
00:39:16
What?
00:39:17
It's like the best.
00:39:18
It's the best you have to describe anything in this realm.
00:39:21
It's fine.
00:39:23
I don't know.
00:39:28
Tell me more about it's fine.
00:39:29
I mean, I think I probably would like more touch, but I don't like the expectations that come with it.
00:39:39
So it's like, like I said, like he's always talked about how that's how he feels close and connected, and that is not what I need to feel close and connected.
00:39:50
Look, I know that you have, and it doesn't mean that it's not true, but you have over the years,
00:40:02
each of you told yourself certain things.
00:40:08
And the more you say, "I don't need this, I don't need this," what you insist on persists.
00:40:17
And you can create a reality with those words.
00:40:23
But you also do not want to continue, have sex, that you grin and bear.
00:40:30
No, sure.
00:40:32
So I think that what may be more helpful at this moment, instead of saying, "I don't, I don't, I don't," is to say, "I have not yet."
00:40:42
I have not yet experienced an openness around touch, because I often experience a demand.
00:40:51
And I don't know yet, and I'm a young woman, and who knows where I'm going to go.
00:40:57
It's a part of me I have never explored.
00:41:02
I know, I'm the idea, or I know my mind takes me fast in places, but that doesn't, it's pieces of information,
00:41:12
but it's not pieces of an identity.
00:41:16
If you keep saying, "I'm not, I'm not, I'm not," you don't leave the door open.
00:41:24
It's about developing self-awareness.
00:41:28
It's not about responding to his pleas.
00:41:34
It's about developing a sense of autonomy, so that you're not just managing other people's needs.
00:41:44
It's about discovering things that you like.
00:41:49
Even if they're small, I mean, small is who decides.
00:41:54
They're going to be big for you.
00:41:58
The way you just moved, and you moved the mic, and you come close to him, and you plot yourself against him, and you took his hand, and you put it exactly around your hip.
00:42:09
You knew exactly where you wanted it to be.
00:42:12
All of that was gesture upon gesture of somebody who knows, who has a sense.
00:42:21
Knowing is a sense knowing.
00:42:23
It's not an intellectual knowing, and then owned it.
00:42:28
How was that for you?
00:42:32
I definitely enjoy non-sexual touch.
00:42:39
I think that's something that, in the last year we've gotten better at.
00:42:43
She's never told me how she wants to be touched.
00:42:46
We've tried...
00:42:47
She just did.
00:42:49
That's what I'm saying.
00:42:51
I just did.
00:42:54
I believe you.
00:42:57
I know she likes more pressure.
00:43:02
We've tried massages beforehand, which I think helped.
00:43:07
I mean, it's hard.
00:43:09
We've tried so much, and it depends on your mood, and sometimes something works, and sometimes it doesn't, but I feel like that has helped.
00:43:17
Works means what?
00:43:20
Works means like, gets her into a headspace to want to have sex.
00:43:31
He begins to talk about how much they have explored non-sexual touch, but it lasts one sentence.
00:43:42
It instantly becomes non-sexual touch meant to make her want to be more sexual with me.
00:43:51
So there is no non-sexual touch.
00:43:53
She may be more single-minded in how she views herself as non-sexual, but so does he.
00:44:01
That's why I stop him to ask, "What do you mean by it works?"
00:44:06
Because I had a sense that it meant it's just a lead-on for the other thing.
00:44:12
That thing in and of itself does not really do it for me.
00:44:20
What are other ways you can experience closeness?
00:44:24
Because there is experience in closeness, and then there is alleviating or relieving yourself.
00:44:32
And the fact that it seems that it helps you go to sleep, it chills you, it relaxes you, and you have it in your mind that it has to be with her.
00:44:43
It doesn't have to be with her, but it just, I mean, ideally it would be with her.
00:44:48
But ideally it will be with her, but probably not nearly.
00:44:54
Here's your question.
00:44:55
You can have frequency or you can have quality at this moment.
00:45:01
If you want quality and you want her to be engaged and you want a partner who is enjoying it and says, "I want this too," then you have to step back.
00:45:13
We've kind of tried both and neither has worked, so that's why we're here.
00:45:18
But this was quality.
00:45:20
Yes.
00:45:21
And this was very simple, "What do you like?"
00:45:24
without saying "What do you like?"
00:45:26
It says, "Take my hand and take it wherever you want it to be."
00:45:33
We can do that at home.
00:45:35
We can do that on the couch, and if it doesn't lead anywhere else, it doesn't have to lead anywhere else.
00:45:40
Then you go, you take care of yourself, but you won't feel taken care of yourself rejected.
00:45:46
Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it that I'm trying to deal with is that it does feel like rejection, and I guess part of the frustration is the best case scenario is fine.
00:46:02
I think, yes, if we had more quality satisfying for her interactions,
00:46:14
it would make the times that we didn't easier.
00:46:18
But that's something we haven't figured out.
00:46:23
I would refer the quality.
00:46:25
That's where we were having the problems, because for me, the idea would be obviously we both want to, like, when it's good, it's good.
00:46:34
But as a whole, I don't know.
00:46:38
It does not come up in my mind.
00:46:41
It is not something that naturally I'd be like, "Oh, this is what I would like to be doing right now, either."
00:46:47
No, but you don't have spontaneous arouse.
00:46:50
No, that's okay.
00:46:53
And loads of people, particularly loads of women, have responsive desire.
00:46:58
We're definitely opposite, yeah.
00:47:01
So, Emilie Nagoski in her book, "Come as you are", describes it very beautifully.
00:47:07
You are responsive, but you're not going to be responsive if you experience the man.
00:47:15
You're going to be responsive if there is invitation.
00:47:20
And even more so, you're going to be responsive when the invitation comes from you, not from him, because it's so hard for you to experience his as an invitation rather than as a demand,
00:47:35
as a need.
00:47:37
When he needs you, and he comes with you with that need, that emotional need, not just a sexual need.
00:47:45
It's an emotional need in the language of sex.
00:47:48
Then you can be nice, and you can be kind, and you can do it because you're taking care of him.
00:47:57
But you experience nothing pleasurable for yourself, except the fact that you feel good about having been nice to him.
00:48:05
And on occasion you start to resent it too.
00:48:09
Very true.
00:48:11
So, that script is what is standing in your way at this point.
00:48:17
Sometimes we engage in sex because we are aroused.
00:48:21
Sometimes we engage in sex because we have desire.
00:48:25
But we don't experience the physiological arousal yet.
00:48:28
Just the thought of it is nice.
00:48:30
I know I feel good, but physically in my body I feel nothing yet.
00:48:34
So, I do things with myself and with my partner, and I start to experience arousal.
00:48:40
That comes next.
00:48:41
And sometimes I start because I have willingness.
00:48:46
If you stayed like that for a chunk of the evening, and it was completely, completely on your term, there's a good chance that you would say this would be a nice thing to do with him.
00:48:57
For him and with him.
00:48:59
And it would be willingness.
00:49:01
No, you would still not have any arousal.
00:49:03
You just would just have a thought in your head, but it would be yours.
00:49:09
And that is what would give it the flavour of desire, because it would be self-generated.
00:49:16
He says, "Nothing turns me on more than to see you turn down."
00:49:21
That's all I would want is to please you.
00:49:24
There are very few straight women who say that.
00:49:28
What changes her is what happens to her, is how she awakens herself, how she ignites herself,
00:49:39
not what happens to him.
00:49:42
And that means that she needs to be able to enter into her body, into your body, and to experience it, pleasurable, relaxing,
00:49:53
inviting.
00:49:55
No responsibility.
00:49:58
Responsibility for you will be the killer of sex.
00:50:01
I have to.
00:50:04
No, that's true.
00:50:07
And I have to, because otherwise he's upset, and if he's upset, then tomorrow we're going to argue, and if we argue, then we're not going to be a good family, and then our kids are going to see everything that I always promised I would never do in front of my kids.
00:50:19
Yeah, that's pretty much how our arguments went.
00:50:24
Yeah.
00:50:25
Give me the sequence.
00:50:26
Yeah, I mean, it would be a failed, frustrated encounter.
00:50:34
We would yell, we would fight, sometimes he would storm off.
00:50:40
I mean, we're both cold to each other to be fair, like we both get cold, but it's a noticeable difference for him, I guess, in the degrees of, like, the difference when he's happy,
00:50:51
and when he's not.
00:50:52
And especially with the frequency thing was, it's like, okay, one day, okay, two days, it's like three is like when,
00:51:03
like, that's about when, like, I feel like, yeah, like his limit of being able to.
00:51:09
And then it's like, then it almost becomes like a forced encounter, like, because we have to now, because we've, because what?
00:51:16
Because we've let it kind of slide for, like, and what happens to you?
00:51:21
I mean, what is so dangerous?
00:51:23
I mean, it's something that, like, I'm trying to avoid, and, and maybe doing other things, like, being close to another ways would help that.
00:51:34
Yeah, I just, I feel like that lack of, of closeness and that, like, that lack of connection and.
00:51:48
But you want a lingual.
00:51:53
You feel very close here.
00:51:56
I watched you.
00:51:57
No, and I think that part of it is we've only had that one way to feel that.
00:52:05
That's when I mean, you want a lingual.
00:52:07
Okay, I'm sorry.
00:52:08
You rely on sex.
00:52:09
Yes.
00:52:10
The only way.
00:52:11
Yeah.
00:52:12
I'm not saying that you're not going to wish you had more sex and more frequently than you will.
00:52:17
But the way that it, it pans up inside of you energetically and how you experience it as a complete severing of the tie from her is,
00:52:31
is acute.
00:52:32
You need to learn other means to self-suit and to regulate so that you're not at a mercy.
00:52:41
What she experiences is the pressure and the urgency.
00:52:45
How do I count myself?
00:52:50
How do I help myself go to sleep?
00:52:52
How do I not have anxiety?
00:52:54
Because when you can't sleep, you get anxious and then you rely on sex for your anxiety.
00:52:59
That has not much to do with sex anymore for connection either.
00:53:05
So do you feel that you can live with a few things with you?
00:53:10
Yeah.
00:53:11
I definitely feel like, yes, we need to find a way to kind of disassociate that.
00:53:16
And I would like to feel that closest.
00:53:19
I mean, that's what I want from our relationship too, but I don't know how.
00:53:24
No, but.
00:53:25
No, but.
00:53:26
Okay.
00:53:27
Punctuate.
00:53:28
Yeah.
00:53:29
See, you sue in your positions that you want to constantly reiterate, read to it.
00:53:34
You know your positions by heart.
00:53:36
Yeah.
00:53:37
You can switch roles and you know exactly what the other one's going to say.
00:53:42
So it's nice for him to hear.
00:53:45
I want that.
00:53:47
And not just because you want that, but I want that.
00:53:51
That's a clear, I want statement on it.
00:53:55
It's beautiful.
00:53:56
Receive it.
00:53:58
Want to try it again without the butt?
00:54:02
Yeah.
00:54:03
I want the closeness.
00:54:06
I want us to find a way to have that non-sexual.
00:54:11
No, I appreciate that.
00:54:14
And by the way, the way he strokes your hip in the last hour is not just affectionate.
00:54:22
It goes in and out.
00:54:24
It's affectionate, it's sensual, it's sexual.
00:54:27
It's beautiful, it's pleasurable.
00:54:30
You notice it sometimes, you don't notice it at other times.
00:54:35
It's in the body and outside the body, inside myself, outside myself.
00:54:39
And that melody is a very, it's one of the many sexual melodies, but it is a sexual melody.
00:54:48
Yes.
00:54:49
And I think I would be more comfortable with it on a regular basis if it didn't always carry stuff with it.
00:54:56
Like it's.
00:54:58
Because here's another way of saying that.
00:55:01
I love it when I can sink into it because that's the thing it is.
00:55:07
That's true, yes.
00:55:09
I really do enjoy it for what it is, like when it stays what it is.
00:55:15
And that will at times become an invitation.
00:55:20
[Music]
00:55:31
Where should we begin with Esther Porell is produced by Magnificent Nois, or part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut.
00:55:41
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walsh over, Destry Sibli, Huwete Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Juliana.
00:55:52
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
00:55:56
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Porell and Jessie Baker.
00:56:02
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.
00:56:10
[Music]
00:56:16
