In this episode my guest is Melissa Boggs. Melissa helps leaders and employees design an intentional employee experience that bridges the cultural and generational gap between them, increasing engagement and inviting joy for all.

The key to engagement is not “fixing” employees or leaders, but enriching the relationship between them. I help design organizational structures and cultures that amplify the strengths of everyone, changing hearts and minds about what is possible at work.

Melissa shares her experiences and thoughts on creating mutually, trusting relationships that bridge the gap between leaders and employees.

Melissas website: http://melissaboggs.com/

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Transcript

Scott: [00:00:00 ] Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, and in this episode, Mike guest is Melissa and we will be talking about how might we create mutually beneficial relationships. So welcome, Melissa, would you like to introduce your.

Melissa: Hello, thank you for having me. Sure. My name is Melissa Boggs.

I'm a keynote speaker and a leadership coach. I focus on employee experience design, and I work with leaders and their teams to bridge the gap between them. And like you said, build mutually beneficial relationships at work.

Scott: Okay. So, I mean, I, I like playing around with the trust and I think that's sort of the.

And a big thing about leadership is having those relationships with people that are, that are two way rather than just a one way. Whereas you think this staff have to do stuff for us to trust them, but it's much more, the other way is as important the other way around as well.

Melissa: Absolutely. And I think this is one of the things [00:01:00 ] that we can miss sometimes as leaders is we have to show up first in fact, because we have.

The, you know, greater power in the power dynamic, we must take the first step toward trust. We must be the first ones to live our values and, you know, show up and be transparent as much as we can. When we do that as leaders, then it opens the door and allows, you know, our, our teams and our teammates to do

Scott: the same.

Okay. So is that like us being role models, leadership, as in the, with role models, this is what we would like people to do. And this is how we are going to act, demonstrate what it's like

Melissa: in a way. I mean, that's part of it, but I would say also, it's just simply that when, when you have the power in a dynamic, you know, then you have to open the door first.

[00:02:00 ] If. If you don't humanize yourself, , you know, and become approachable, then you can't have an expectation that someone who is. You know, watching you is going to make themselves, I guess that's what it's about. It's about vulnerability, right? If you don't make yourself vulnerable as the one who has more power in a relationship, you cannot possibly expect someone else to make themselves vulnerable either.

One of my favorite stories when I was the co CEO of scrum Alliance, I was quite new in that role. And. Consider myself to be a humble leader and a leader who listens, et cetera, et cetera. And so I kept using this phrase. So my title was actually chief scrum master, and I kept saying to people, okay, I'm gonna take off my chief hat.

and my intention was like, Hey, like we're just two people. I just wanna listen, you know, tell me what you're thinking, et cetera, et cetera. And [00:03:00 ] I remember so clearly sitting down with this in a one-on-one with this dear woman, and she was maybe a bit older than me, more experienced and. But yet she was my employee.

And so we're having this conversation and I used that phrase. I said, okay, I'm gonna take my chief hat off. And I want you to, you know, be honest, like tell me, et cetera, et cetera. And she goes, she puts her hand on my arm. Like it was so gentle and kind, but she was like, honey, I need you to understand that.

No matter how many times you say that you cannot take off your chief hat, no matter what you say, you are still the person who signed my paycheck. And that was like a ton of bricks. I mean, that was a slap in the face, not from her, but like the, the reality of it that I, I can't just be like, oh, you know, just be real [00:04:00 ] with me.

I have to be real with them. First. I have to be vulnerable with them first. I have to. Kind of work double time to create a safe place for us to have a discourse because no matter what I say, you know, I have the power in the relationship. It, it, I had the power in that relationship. And so we can think that we're the cool leader, but actually like we have to work extra hard to create that relationship and, and space in that relationship.

Scott: So it's interesting cause you hear it quite a lot or don't just imagine I'm not the CEO either, but in reality you can't cuz you always are.

Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. And again, that was a big awakening for me. I, I remember just thinking, like, no matter what I do, there's a weight to my opinions, so I need to not share them unless it's important.

You know, if, if they're just opinions that actually, [00:05:00 ] maybe I need to hold them and give other people space because whether I like it or not, there's a weight.

Scott: I mean, that's an interesting word. So apart from that sort of holding back your opinions, unless you thought it was important for you to express an opinion, what other impacts do you think the insight you got from that your, your member of staff's?

Just that, as you say, sometimes that one comment just hit you like a ton of bricks and then you had to reevaluate so many things.

Melissa: So that was the main one to be honest was just like the weight of my opinions. And. Often when, when I was saying things like that, like, oh, pretend I'm not the CEO or, oh, I'm taking off my cheat hat.

It was just because I just wanted to say something like, I just wanted to like babble off some words. And so when I found myself about to say that I would ask myself, like, is it really important for me to say this right now? You know, even if it's an important thought to share at some point, is it important [00:06:00 ] right now?

And. It made a difference in like the space that I was creating because I would, I would just wait and I would hold it. Again, in order to make space, it's not that my opinions were not important or, you know, the leader is no longer valuable, obviously, you know, there's value. But if we're talking about wanting to hear from our teams and our teammates, we have to recognize that you.

Leaders spin the conversation whether they want to or not. So if you're gonna say, okay, I wanna know if everyone likes fruit lobes better or Cheerios. I like fruit lobes better. What do you think everyone's gonna say? right. Let's realize I use very American-centric cereals, but but you know, you're gonna swing the conversation one way or another.

If you go. And so I think that was one of the things that, that kind of said to me is I couldn't go, I wanna know, you know, if everyone likes fruit loops or Cheerios, I'm gonna take off my chief [00:07:00 ] hat and tell you that I like fruit loops does not make a difference. Everyone's gonna say fruit loops, not everyone, but you know, you're gonna sway the conversation, whether you realize it or.

Scott: Okay. So you've had, so having that sort of, that create that space pausing, and the question is, yeah, I've got an opinion, but is it necessary right now? Mm-hmm I think is it, is it so that's, do you think it's a really important question for us to ask ourselves before we express an opinion or a thought?

Melissa: I think so. And actually, I think that's true of everyone, but just especially of executive leaders who are trying to create.

Scott: Okay. So being aware of the moment and saying, is this appropriate for this moment in time to, or will it damage that space that we're trying to create? So how did you find that your staff started to, to respond to you now that you've created that space for them, and you were creating that space and withholding your opinion to you thought it was necessary to express it?

Melissa: It took time for sure. But eventually[00:08:00 ] I did start to hear more from them. You know, I did start to hear their creativity and their ideas, which frankly were often better than my. I might have been like holding something back and be like, oh, I have this idea. And then sometimes they would say exactly what I was thinking or sometimes what they said was even better.

And so, you know, a little mental, like pat on the back to myself, I'm like, Ooh, good job shutting up. Good job.

Scott: I wonderful managers could do that. Say how many times I can. I congratulate myself for being quiet or shutting up.

Melissa: Exactly. It's a new metric for leaders. It might be an amazing, yeah. Yeah. How many times can you be

Scott: quiet?

That would be an interesting thing for people to say, how many times did I actually manage to bite my tongue or shut up in a conversation.

Melissa: And, you know, the funny thing is tha