This week’s guest is Johann Hari, whose books and TED Talks on depression, anxiety, and addiction have reached millions of people.

His 2015 talk Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong had a huge impact on Matt, changing how he thought about his own recovery.

Matt then devoured Johann’s first book Chasing The Scream which looked at the war on drugs, through the story of Billie Holiday. While writing this book, Johann travelled the world to find out how different countries and cultures are dealing with addiction. Because, when it comes to treatment, prevention and enforcement, some countries have got it nailed... and some really haven't. In fact, many countries (including the UK) have got a lot to learn when it comes to our attitudes towards drugs and addiction.

This conversation dives into Billie Holiday’s story and the legacy of Harry J Anslinger’s war on drugs; the importance of connection and compassion in addiction recovery; and what we can learn from innovations in countries like Portugal and Switzerland, and, at the community level, in Vancouver.

(01:10 ) Johann’s funeral song (a surprising choice, but perhaps not for Busted fans)

(02:44 ) The impact of Johann’s Ted Talk on Matt

(04:45 ) Johann’s motivation for researching addiction

(08:43 ) The Rat Park experiment and the importance of connection

(13:26 ) The U.S. vs. Billie Holiday and what this story teaches us about the war on drugs

(27:36 ) Addiction treatment in the prison system

(32:32 ) Shame and stigma in addiction (and the importance of looking at multiple factors)

(43:40 ) The impact of junk values in contemporary society

(51:00 ) Looking for, and fixating on, negative feedback

(53:36 ) The different approach to addiction in Portugal 

(59:07 ) Andrew Sullivan, gay marriage, and important cultural change

(01:01:59 ) Decriminalisation vs. legalisation and the Swiss approach to addiction

(01:06:22 ) The power of ordinary people in cultural change

(01:07:54 ) What we can learn from Vancouver (Bud Osborn and Philip Owen)

(01:14:24 ) Concluding thoughts from Johann and Matt

Related links:

Johann’s books

The film adaptation of Chasing The Scream: The United States vs, Billie Holiday

Billie Holiday’s Strange Fruit

Bruce K Alexander’s Rat Park experiment

Joe Arpaio’s Tent City

Dr Vincent J Felitti

Dr Gabor Maté 

Professor Tim Kasser’s The High Price of Materialism and his experiment with Nathan Duncan

Portugal’s Dr João Goulão

Virtually Normal by Andrew Sullivan

Former President of Switzerland Ruth Dreifuss

The Vancouver Area Network of Drug Users: VANDU

Former Vancouver Mayor Philip Owen

NHS: Getting Help for Drug Addiction