I’m joined again by researcher and former professor Dr. Lindo Bacon (they/them). In this very special follow up recording, Lindo and I reflect on our experience of recording part one. We talk about the power of letting go of perfectionism, connecting with each other from a place of vulnerability and the gift of feeling into our bodies during conversation.

About Lindo: For nearly two decades Lindo has taught courses in social justice, health, weight and nutrition. They are also the author of Health at Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight, and co-authored Body Respect: What Conventional Health Books Get Wrong, Leave Out, or Just Plain Fail to Understand About Weight. Their newly released book, Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming it for the Better) , takes their inspiring message beyond size, to shaping a culture of empathy, equity, and true belonging.

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Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Lindo’s work and books on their website

Lindo’s new book Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming It For the Better)

Follow Lindo on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook

adrienne maree brown’s new book, We Will Not Cancel Us

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast and self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy, my pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Part 2 of the episode with Dr. Linda Bacon. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, I'd highly recommend that you head there first and hear that. Otherwise, this may not make much sense. If you've already listened to Part 1, then I won't keep you any longer and I'll let you get straight to listening to Part 2.

Gem: Hi Lindo! Thanks so much for joining me again.

Lindo: Oh, it's great to see you again, Gem.

Gem: Yeah, and it's really nice to actually see you as well, rather than just to hear you because before we both said that was a bit disconnecting.

Lindo: Right, right. Definitely, I think it's gonna be... it's so much easier to feel present when you can actually see somebody.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And what we were talking about in between when we recorded the first episode, which was towards the end of December - I think was the 22nd of December actually - and this is kind of like a reflection part, I guess, where we had this experience and it's about what has come out of that. I found it a really interesting experience. I don't know how it's been for you.

Lindo: Yeah, it has been quite a learning experience. I know right after we talked, I had felt a bit of disconnection in our conversation, and I felt awkward with you running the podcast for other people, because it just didn't feel like I was fully present in it. It just didn't feel like it was as powerful as it could be. And I felt a lot of shame for that. And so I contacted you and asked you not to run it and let me just be thoughtful a little bit about what was going on. And what was your experience when I contacted you and said that?

Gem: Yeah, cos it was at the end of the recording wasn't it that we talked and you'd said that you were feeling a bit disconnected? And I think my immediate thought was, "Oh gosh, I've done something wrong. They're not keen on the questions that I was asking, or I kind of messed up in some way". And you were really reassuring that that wasn't the case, it was just that you weren't feeling it that day and you'd had a lot going on. And, I think for me, I had lots of thoughts. So I guess if I'm being really vulnerable, inadequacy was one that came up because I've read your books and I really enjoy your work and I've found it really helpful in my own work, and then to have that opportunity to interview you felt really exciting. But then for that outcome where there was that kind of disconnection, I thought, "Oh, I've done something wrong. And maybe I shouldn't have sort of put myself forward for it, after all."

Gem: But actually, in the conversation that we had just after we'd recorded, what came up for me was so many things around what it means to be vulnerable in conversation with people... we've never met each other before but the fact that you were able to share that that was what was going on for you was really, really insightful for me. And I think I remember you saying to me, would I have said anything if if you hadn't brought it up? And I remember just having such a strong sense of no - that would have been so rude. Like I couldn't say, "Oh Lindo, I didn't think you were feeling it today" or "What was that about?" But I had such a strong sense while we were recording that that energy was just like, not there. And we were just saying before we started recording now that when you listen back to the episode, you can't really tell. It's not clear but actually being in the conversation, there's something about that intuitive connection between people that you get a sense of... I felt really strongly that this wasn't feeling good for you. And so I learned a lot. That was a very long answer

Lindo: I did too. Yeah. And it's also interesting to me to watch the kind of perfectionism in me, that there's something I want to portray to people, and I only want to be seen at my best, and the protectiveness of not letting... I don't know if vulnerability is... vulnerability is not the right word here because I am vulnerable. I mean but something about not letting what I see as my best self forward is just problematic. And you know, like, the reality is, humans are messy, right? And we're not always fully present. I mean, that would just be exhausting if we were. And sometimes there's a protectiveness that our bodies do for us that's kind of necessary and valuable, and how we can just celebrate that shutting down that happens sometimes as a way of just protecting ourselves so that we can put our best selves forward. All of that is just part of being human, and why can't I just accept that and roll with it? And it's nice to get this beautiful opportunity with you to just kind of acknowledge our humanity and yeah... and the act of doing this just makes me feel such love for you and makes me feel our connection now. So it just feels so clear to me how important the vulnerability and just sharing our humanity is to connection, to happiness, to belonging, to everything.

Gem: Totally. So yes, so many things there. I think I remember when you got back in touch with me and said you'd listened to the episode and we could rerecord it, but you think it's fine to go out as it is. And I remember thinking, like feeling a really strong sense of not wanting to not put out what we'd recorded if it was okay with you, because it felt like such a waste to have spent an hour together and then to just be like, oh we'll record it again and that'll go in the bin. And it didn't feel good. And so then there was something about... and I felt actually felt nervous to suggest it, but something about reflecting on this experience that felt really useful, and actually more important than having an "perfect" podcast. And because that when we met that was a snapshot in time and I remember you saying that you'd recorded like 15 in the last couple of weeks, 15 different podcasts, which first of all, must be exhausting and second of all, how could we possibly expect ourselves to be entirely switched on for all of that time? Like it's not realistic, is it for every podcast to be as good as the last. People are only seeing us for a snapshot of that time. But yeah, there has to be something about putting things out into the world that are okay, and not having to be perfect all the time.

Lindo: Exactly and I'm thinking right now about a huge transition I made in my public speaking. Originally, I was trained as a scientist about how you get organised, you get your point across to people. And in all of that, there's no mention of the audience and connection with them. It's talking at them, right? And as soon as I made the transition in my speaking to stopping that process, to just going into my talks with the ideas I wanted to get across, but without the clear sense of this is how you do it, but instead just looking at the audience, seeing the reaction and throwing i