In this episode of Queers & Co., I’m joined by Sophie Christophy, feminist, children’s rights activist and co-founder of a self-directed, consent and rights based education setting called the Cabin.

We chat about children’s rights and how the dominant parent culture is a representation of patriarchy, how schooling is not designed to allow for individuality, queering education and the importance of ed positivity.

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co.

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Sophie’s website: https://sophiechristophy.wordpress.com/

Twitter: @schristophy

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/schristophy 

The Cabin: https://www.downatthecabin.com/

The Phoenix Education Trust: https://www.phoenixeducation.co.uk/

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC): https://www.unicef.org.uk/what-we-do/un-convention-child-rights/

Ban the Booths campaign: https://banthebooths.co.uk/

bell hooks: http://www.bellhooksinstitute.com/

bell hooks, Teaching to Transgress: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-Transgress-Education-Practice-Translation/dp/0415908086/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=53999208955&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI56Som4S45wIVTLDtCh0Ylg6YEAAYAiAAEgISDvD_BwE&hvadid=259061695134&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1006984&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5078044356646694407&hvtargid=kwd-299674323339&hydadcr=10364_1752646&keywords=teaching+to+transgress&qid=1580823978&sr=8-1

Full Transcription:

Gem: Hi Sophie.

Sophie: Hi Gem. How are you?

Gem: I'm good, thank you. How are you?

Sophie: I'm fine, thank you. I'm fine.

Gem: Good and so I'm really excited to talk to you and it feels a bit weird because we're friends in real life. It would be really great for other people than me if you could introduce yourself.

Sophie: Yeah, sure. Okay. So I'm Sophie. I have a few hats. I'm a children's rights activist fundamentally but I am also the Co-Director of a consent-based self-directed education setting called The Cabin. And I'm a trustee for an education charity called the Phoenix Education Trust as well as being a parent to two children who are unschooled and yeah, living life basically. I'd say that's probably a summary for the moment.

Gem: There's lots to explore there. I guess lots of new terms that people might not have come across if they're not familiar with unschooling or home ed for example. So I guess my first question will probably be the fundamentals of what are children's rights.

Sophie: Okay. Sothere's a legal document, which is helpful, called the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. And it was created over a couple of decades actually and finally ratified in 1990 by the UK but every country in the world has, symbolically at least ratified the treaty apart from the United States.

Gem: Interesting!

Sophie: I know it's a long story. The UNCRC lays out a whole bunch of rights that apply to all people aged under 18 and it was created largely to recognise the fact that that group have particular vulnerabilities in our society that other groups may not have in quite the same way and are deserving of a list of rights basically to help support them in living in a dignified and respected way. Like I said it was ratified by the UK in 1990 so it's been around for a while now but what I've found over my time of engaging with this issue is that it's not that widely known and it's not that widely practised, is the kind of important part. But I mean the basic principles of it are that children are people, they're not property of anyone, that their rights holders, that they are entitled to a voice, that they're entitled to be themselves and to live a full life. I would say that's the basics.

Gem: Yeah and I guess they sound like obvious things, but when you dig a bit deeper, you realise that children actually don't benefit from a lot of those rights in multiple scenarios.

Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I mean, traditionally family culture the culture we have in schools, kind of general social norms and values don't accommodate children's rights. The norm doesn't sit in a place that makes the UNCRC easy. You know? And so it was realising that that my activism, I would say, because I think it's one thing to feel as an individual that perhaps our culture around childhood and children isn't right but it's another thing when you realise that actually there is kind of a legal consequence to that and the responsibility that people have mutually agreed to that isn't being upheld. And that's the point at which I sort of realised that this is a social justice issue and not just an opinion

Gem: Yeah and I know we've talked before together that, well I definitely have come across it and I don't want to assume that you have, but I imagine you might have, that when you're in other circles with other activists doing work in other spheres, they're generally aware of potentially other movements or other marginalised groups, but not children. And I find it really frustrating when I come across people, particularly queer people so in my own community who wouldn't dream of saying something about another marginalised group but will be really negative about children.

Sophie: Yeah. It's, it's really fascinating actually. And I think even when you get into intersectional feminism and are working towards appreciating how different identities and different circumstances and oppressions overlap and converge and affect each other to, you know, create an overall experience it's not common at the moment for the condition of childhood to be included in intersectionality. Like you said, it will usually include issues around race, issues around gender and sexuality, issues around ability and disability. But children are not included generally in that approach and that lens which is fascinating because it's the one experience of oppression that everyone has. And it's also the space where we learn all the others. So in a way childhood should be the base starting point to understand why we have all of these other issues in society. And knowing that because of discrimination and prejudice against children, knowing that that's what makes these other oppressions possible is critical. Because if you don't, if you're not taking that perspective, then you're essentially trying to fight the fire by throwing water at the flames rather than coming to the root cause of it. And you can't make lasting change unless we address how children are socialised.

Gem: Absolutely. And this idea of like having agency that all of a sudden when you're say 18, now okay, you can make decisions for yourself and you can live the life that you want to, but you haven't grown up understanding how that actually looks and so everyone's sort of re-learning or I guess just making it up for themselves as soon as they get to adulthood and then they return their experiences on their children if they have children and just think it's like normal parenting. I wonder if we could give some really kind of clear examples of where maybe parents might be going against the UNCRC basically.

Sophie: Well, I think probably every parent, unless they're actively and consciously engaging with the idea of children's rights, will not be behaving in a way that's in accordance with rights because it's contrary to our mainstream culture of parenthood. And it's very difficult to be in relationship with your children in a way that's different to the relationship you were in with your own parents, unless you're making a really intentional effort to think critically about your own childhood experience and to allow yourself to explore alternatives. Our dominant parenting culture is literally a representation of patriarchal dynamic. It's a power-over dynamic where the parents are in a position of unaccountable authority. I mean that's not necessarily true or what will happen in their relationship life if they behave in that way, but that's the perception that a parent has unaccountable authority and the child is a passive recipient of that authority and isn't entitled to a voice. I mean they might be privileged to some agency and some voice, you know, in the relationship at times, but it's not seen as their fundamental rights. And yeah, I mean it's, it's difficult. The relationship between the parent and the child is, I think, the most difficult place to be activated in because it's so emotional and it requires people