Harvard Professor Amy Edmondson talks with Andrea about the significance of accountability in a psychologically safe workplace. Learn about the important difference between disappointment vs regret and between mistakes vs failures. Amy shares insights from her new book, “The Right Kind of Wrong,” including the three types of failure, and the one we should be striving for!

BOOKS & ARTICLES MENTIONED

• Amy Edmondson – “The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth” – https://amzn.to/4dYjz4R


• Amy Edmondson – “Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well” –  https://amzn.to/4eGjOTc


• Daniel Kahneman – “Thinking Fast & Slow” – https://amzn.to/3UmQMjv


• Adam Grant (NYTimes) – “Women Know Exactly What They’re Doing When They Use “Weak Language” – https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/31/opinion/women-language-work.html


• Samuel Culbert – “Get Rid of the Performance Review!: How Companies Can Stop Intimidating, Start Managing–and Focus on What Really Matters“ – https://amzn.to/40glY7x

CONNECT WITH ANDREA & TALK ABOUT TALK

• Website: TalkAboutTalk.com


• Communication Coaching Newsletter:  https://talkabouttalk.com/newsletter


• LinkedIn Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/


• LinkedIn TalkAboutTalk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/


• YouTube Channel: @talkabouttalkyoutube

TRANSCRIPT

Yes, we all have work to do. In the next 45 minutes, you’re going to learn directly from Harvard Business School professor Amy Edmondson, a pioneer in psychological safety and failing well.

Wait – isn’t that an oxymoron? “Failing Well”?

Not necessarily.

I cant wait for you to hear my conversation with Amy

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #175

“Psychological Safety and failing well with professor Amy Edmondson.”

My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. Through my work at Talk about Talk, I coach ambitious executives to elevate their communication skills so they can communicate with confidence and credibility. To learn more about what I do, head over to talkabouttalk.com where you can read about the coaching and the workshops that I run. Plus there are lots of free resources for you, including the brand new archetypes quiz, where you can learn which archetype resonates with you and your professional identity. You can also free coaching from me by signing up for my free email newsletter.

Head over to talkabouttalk.com to sign up now.

OK,Let’s get into this.

Years ago, I had the privilege of taking Professor Amy Edmondson’s doctoral course called “Field Research Methods” at Harvard Business School. Fast forward to today. Many years later, I regularly coach executives – and medical and health care professionals, as youll hear, whether through 1:1 coaching sessions or corporate workshops, on some of the phenomena that Amy taught me, and some of the concepts that she pioneered, including psychological safety.

Recently, Amy published a new book called “Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing well”. After reading the book, I emailed Amy and asked her if I could interview her for this podcast. I was thrilled that she immediately agreed. To say Amy’s work is impactful and prolific would be an understatement. So my goal with this interview is to ask Amy the Qs that I know YOU would ask – Qs focused on communication skills, and possibly Qs that differ from the Qs she typically gets in many of the other interviews she’s done. Here, we focus on our communication and our mindset as leaders and as communicators.

We have a LOT to talk about here!

Let me introduce Amy, then we’ll get right into the interview.

At the end, as always, I’m going to summarize with three learnings that I want to reinforce for you. Sound good?

Ok.

Amy C. Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School, a chair established to support the study of human interactions that lead to the creation of successful enterprises that contribute to the betterment of society. Amy is so perfect for this chair, I have to say.

Amy studies teaming, psychological safety, and organizational learning, and she’s authored 7 books and over 75 cases and articles. She’s been recognized by the biannual Thinkers50 global ranking of management thinkers since 2011, and most recently was ranked #1 in 2021 and 2023; She also received that organization’s Breakthrough Idea Award in 2019, and Talent Award in 2017.

In 2019, Amy’s published her seminal book, “The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation and Growth.” Her more recent book “Right Kind of Wrong – The Science of Failing Well,” is due to be translated into 24 additional languages, and was selected for the Financial Times and Schroders Best Business Book of the Year award.

Yes, I’ll leave links to these books in the shownotes, along with links to other books and papers that we mention in our conversation.

Here we go!

INTERVIEW

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Amy, for being here today to talk to us about psychological safety and the concept of failing well.

Amy Edmondson: Thrilled to be here.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I’ve already shared the definition of psychological safety, but I have a question. When I’m discussing this with my clients, especially when it comes up in coaching sessions, I often describe it as a culture where it’s safe to take risks. Is that a solid, short definition?

Amy Edmondson: It absolutely is.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Perfect!

Amy Edmondson: This topic has come up frequently in my work and research within organizations, largely due to the growing popularity of the concept. However, this also leads to many misunderstandings and misconceptions. There are two key points that people often raise that can be frustrating, both for them and for me. One is…

Amy Edmondson: People often say, “We love this psychological safety concept, but we have to care about performance.” The reality is that without a climate where risk-taking feels safe, it’s challenging to perform well.

In our world of uncertainty and interdependence, there’s another concerning trend: people are starting to misuse the concept as a weapon. They might say, “You can’t give me feedback, or you’ll undermine my psychological safety.” That’s completely incorrect.

Psychological safety actually encourages an environment where we provide feedback to one another. We should aim to give it respectfully and accurately, even though it won’t always be perfect. We need to accept that we might get it wrong sometimes, but we’re doing our best and will work through it together.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love how your two seminal books are not mutually exclusive; there’s so much overlap. You mentioned getting it wrong, which leads me to a question I was planning to ask later. Recently, I conducted workshops for physicians in Australia, despite the