In the previous episode Phil left us with a statement on leadership requiring you to grow as individual. This is the perfect hook for the second half of my talk with Phil where we - near the end - will still discuss his quote “Between my finger and thumb the squat pen rests. I'll dig with it.” By Saemus Heaney. But first I ask Phil whether he sees a difference - when you are in a leadership position - to grow as an individual or as a professional, or whether he considers these to be intertwined.