Several years ago, there was a tweet that went viral which said that of Jesus’ many miracles, perhaps his greatest, was having 12 close friends in his 30s.

As people say, it’s funny, because it’s true.

When my guest today came face-to-face with the anemic state of his own friendships, he set out to try to do the miraculous himself, and make friends in middle-age. His name is Billy Baker and he’s a journalist and the author of We Need to Hang Out: A Memoir of Making Friends. Billy and I begin our conversation with the problem of male loneliness in the modern age, and how it befell him in his own life. We then discuss how men and women do friendships differently, the way men do theirs shoulder to shoulder, what this means for what male friendships need to be built around, and why they require what he calls “velvet hooks.” Billy shares how he started his project, which experimented with different ways to recover and create connections, by rekindling his old friendships, but why that ultimately didn’t scratch the friendship itch for him. Billy then describes what did: a kind of casual fraternity for middle-aged men he started, and how it was inspired by something called the “men’s shed” movement in Australia and its philosophy that men need “somewhere to go, something to do, and someone to talk to.” We end our conversation with Billy’s takeaways for making friends in adulthood, including the need for embracing intentionality and social risk.

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Show Highlights

• Why are men so susceptible to loneliness?


• What are the health consequences of loneliness?


• Face to face versus shoulder to shoulder 


• What are “velvet hooks”?


• Why re-kindling past friendships didn’t fully scratch the friendship itch 


• Why the Men’s Shed Movement inspired Billy to make some actual friends 


• How COVID managed to strengthen friendships 


• The pressure of trying to be friends with both halves of a couple 


• What’s the actionable takeaway here for guys?

Resources/Articles/People Mentioned in Podcast

• The Hidden Tragedy of Male Loneliness


• Finding Connection in a Lonely World


• The Best Way to Make and Keep Friendships in Adulthood


• Understanding the Wonderful, Frustrating Dynamic of Friendship


• Understanding Male Friendships


• Making and Keeping Friendships


• The History and Nature of Male Friendships


• Bosom Buddies: A Photo History of Male Affection


• Building Your Band of Brothers


• “The Biggest Threat Facing Middle-Aged Men” — Billy’s original article that went viral 


• The Joys and Difficulties of Making Friendships in Adulthood


• Men’s Shed Association

Connect With Billy

Billy on Twitter

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Read the Transcript

Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness Podcast. Several years ago, there was a Tweet that went viral, which said that of Jesus’s many miracles, perhaps his greatest was having 12 close friends in his 30s. As people say, it’s funny because it’s true. My guest today came face-to-face with the anemic state of his own friendships. He set out to try to do the miraculous himself and make friends in middle-age. His name is Billy Baker. He’s a journalist and the author of We Need to Hang Out: A Memoir of Making Friends. Billy and I begin our conversation with the problem of male loneliness in the modern age and how it befell him in his own life. We then discuss how men and women do friendships differently.

The way men do theirs shoulders to shoulder, what this means for what male friendships need to be built around and why they require what Billy calls velvet hooks. Billy then shares how he started his project, which experimented with different ways of recovering great connections by rekindling his old friendships, why that ultimately didn’t scratch the friendship itch for him. Billy then describes what did, kind of casual fraternity for middle-aged men that he started and how it’s inspired by something called the Men’s Shed Movement in Australia. It’s a philosophy that men need somewhere to go, something to do, and someone to talk to. We begin our conversation with Billy’s takeaways for making friends in adulthood, including the need for embracing intentionality and social risk. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/makefriends. Alright,Billy Baker, welcome to the show.

Billy Baker: Hey, thanks for having me.

Brett McKay: So you got a book out, We Need to Hang Out: A Memoir of Making Friends. And this is all about you trying to make friends as a 40-year-old, middle-aged man. So what began your quest to make friends as a middle-aged man?

Billy Baker: Well, I got conned by an editor with one of the oldest lies in journalism, which is, We have a story we think you’d be perfect for. So this came from a guy at the Boston Globe Magazine, and I marched down to his office, sat down, told him to lay it on me, and he said, We want you to write about how middle-aged men have no friends. And I had that brief existential crisis sitting there, as he’s rattling off all these dire health consequences