In mid 2023, Ofsted published a report into T levels: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/t-level-thematic-review-final-report

Here we hear from two college leaders, John Laramy, Principal, Exeter College and Diana Bird, Principal, Shipley College, about the challenges, opportunities and hopes for the future of the newest addition to the qualifications on offer for learners.

Shreena Kotecha  0:00  

Hi I am Shreena Kotecha head of strategy at Ofsted. And joining us today we have Diana Bird from Shipley College and John Laramy Principal from Exeter college and we also have Ofsted's finest Richard Beynon and Paul Joyce, from further education and skills. So today, we're going to be talking about T levels. We're actually recording this podcast the day after the announcement by the Prime Minister about plans to change T levels and A levels. We're awaiting the developments with interest. But in the meantime, we're going to talk about T levels. Anyway, a question for our two guests - are our students enjoying T levels?

John Laramy  0:43  

They very much are. So we get really good feedback from the students who take them. And they go on to some amazing progression opportunities. I would say that we certainly had really positive feedback from the students who have chosen them. I think that they aren't for every student. I think it is a demanding programme. It's a big programme. And I think in certain areas, finding the industrial placement is a real challenge. But students are really enjoying the T level, we're getting a lot out of it. And what we've been amazed by is how students have been able to progress straight from a T level into things like a degree apprenticeship.

Diana Bird  1:17  

Yeah, I'd agree with John, I think it's very much about making sure that you've recruited the right students onto the T level programmes. And for the students that are well suited to a T level, it is a fantastic experience. And we've seen similar things in terms of our students' progressions, so great experiences when they get into the right placements with  employers who appreciate what those students are contributing to those organisations. And a number of our students have progressed to employment in those organisations where they've had their placements, which has been an amazing outcome for them. So for the right students, a fantastic programme.

Richard Beynon  1:55  

Can I just ask, one of the things that we reported on in our thematic review of the rollout of T levels was that some knew, I think it was a small minority, but some T level students had difficulty getting their T level recognised as an entry qualification for higher education. Is that still a problem? Well, or has that been a problem for your students?

Diana Bird  2:25  

I'll be honest, in the area that we're working in, in West Yorkshire, we've not found that at all. So we even had one of our first cohort, secure a place at one of the Russell Group universities, so that was really positive outcome there, in terms of our local universities, which is where the majority of our students generally from the college tend to progress and we work really, really closely with them. So I think it's about the work that you do with your local universities or with the universities, to help them to understand the T level. And I think that's been one of our big challenges. As the as educators and as colleges, we've, we've become very familiar with the T levels. But I don't think that that's something that is, a generally shared piece of knowledge. And that's, that's going from schools to students to parents and and also into the university. So we've we've worked with them to help them to understand the curriculum to help them to see what students will be studying. And the universities have then been very happy to take our students but equally, they've amended their own curriculum in response to what's in the T level curriculum, because what we were finding with a lot of the curriculum in the T level was replacing what was in the first year of the degree. So they've had to amend their programmes. So we've we've certainly won them over. Because the amount of content and the challenge, the difficulty of the T level convinces universities that that those students have really demonstrated a high level of skill when they've achieved a good grade in a T level.

John Laramy  4:00  

I think it's a great question, which I think my my experience is a little bit different to Diana, I think in terms of some universities are very open to T levels, where they understand that they've learned about them, I would say that it's not yet uniformly accepted right across the full suite of universities. And I think that's a piece of work for us collectively to do to help the T level brand grow, that help it be more recognised. So I think that there are opportunities for young people to progress to university from T levels but I think it's probably slightly narrower than we wish it to be. And there's probably a narrower choice.

Shreena Kotecha  4:42  

Both of you sort of emphasised in your opening remarks that these are great for the right sort of student. Can you do a sort of pen picture of the sort of student you think really benefits from T levels?

John Laramy  4:53  

 So it's a young person who has a particular interest in a particular vocational discipline. If where they sort of know, that's where their passion lies, is relatively able. So I think one of the things that we need to be really open and honest about is that T levels are very rigorous and large programmes. The assessment mechanism is very, very challenging. And the content in some areas, I think, as Diana was saying, you're in some cases you're studying at year one of degree level content. So that does mean you need to work very hard to get the right student on the right course. And I think the industrial placement also adds an extra element of excitement, there's no doubt that is a bit of the magic formula. But that hybrid working, that changed after the pandemic has put some additional barriers in certain areas. And I think, in some areas, we've probably got a pre COVID policy for a post COVID world. And I think, you know, and I think that was something Ofsted commented about, about the particular challenges in in some areas. But my experience is, it's the young person who may have in the past done A levels, and this young person has chosen to do something in an area that they're really interested in.

Shreena Kotecha  6:11  

And kind of conversely, do you have any students who you think don't do well with T levels? And can you do a sort of similar picture of what what that sort of person is like?

Diana Bird  6:19  

Yeah, I'll pick that one. I think John talked about assessment. The assessment is extremely rigorous, and, and very, very academic. And that's not suited to all of our students. I think at the moment where we're in a position where, where T levels form part of an offer, that sits alongside A levels, B techs, various other types of qualifications. And we're able to identify those sorts of students, it provides another option for a different type of student, so probably a student, you know, who would have gone down that A level route. So conversely, the T level is not appropriate for a lot of the students who have traditionally taken those vocational qualifications within colleges. And I think from my point of view, that's, that's the group of students I'm most worried about at the moment, I have an alternative for those students. And those students are still able to study to level three to be able to demonstrate their skills in a very different way. Not always through that sit down formally examination, but being able to demonstrate them in much more practical, consistent, other rigorous ways of assessment. And, and so at the moment, while we have that option, the T level enhances the qualification offer that we have for our students. My big concern at the moment is that all of the research that has been done has been looking at students that have been selected or have been guided towards the T level, because we know that they are, they fit that profile that John was talking about. My big concern is that we haven't really considered and the T level review doesn't really consider how they will be rolled out, how they will serve and meet the needs of students who are who we currently are not choosing to put onto T levels because there's something else that is better for them. And I think that the review might have looked very different, had had it been done in three or four years time, if that were to be the only level three offer that we have for our students.

John Laramy  8:17  

I think the other thing I'd probably add to that is just around the capacity and space to deliver things like your GCSE retake. I think one of the positive things about a T level is the expectation of additional teaching hours. I think with that comes the challenge that if a student has a particular skill in an area, like English, but hasn't quite got there for maths, alongside other level three programmes, we're able to fit a GCSE, retaken alongside that, where the young person is a level three student, but just has one area that they need to work on and retake that isn't possible with in my experience, that's not possible with the T level. So it's it's legally possible. But it's not practically possible. And I think that's something that we just need to be really cognizant of. And I think is is a challenge, which sort of leads to to the point that Diana was making really is that, that it's important that we do have other options. They're not for every student.

Richard Beynon  9:15  

And