In part four, Guyon Espiner talks to Dame Jenny Shipley about being the first woman on the 9th Floor, plus coups and coalitions, welfare reform and Winston Peters. And, above all, her commitment to change.

In part four of The 9th Floor, Guyon Espiner talks to Dame Jenny Shipley about being the first woman Prime Minister, plus coups and coalitions, welfare reform and Winston Peters. And, above all, her commitment to change.

Watch a video of the interview here.

By Guyon Espiner

Jenny Shipley evoked strong responses from New Zealanders during her time in politics and I suspect that, with her new comments about "middle class welfare" and working with Winston Peters, she is about to do so again.

But while people respond strongly to Shipley, there has been very little examination of her leadership. Researching the interview for The 9th Floor series, Tim Watkin and I found there were few books and very little academic study of this hugely influential New Zealand politician.

We'll look at why that might be in a moment - but it certainly isn't because she doesn't generate debate.

During the day we spent with Shipley she said New Zealand needs to take the "blowtorch" to middle class welfare, with student allowances and healthcare areas where middle and higher income earners should pay more. She finds it "morally bankrupt" that the country doesn't have an honest discussion about this and that she personally feels "sick" that on her income she can't opt out of subsidised health care.

She also has some fascinating observations about working with Winston Peters, who may again be a key coalition player after the coming election.

Shipley, who sacked him as Treasurer in 1998 as the first MMP government fell apart over the sale of Wellington Airport, offers bouquets and brickbats.

"Winston could have been Prime Minister but for want of himself. His complexity often got ahead of his capability. Watching him on a good day he was brilliant," she says. "He was an 85 percent outstanding leader. And the 15 percent absolutely crippled him because he would get so myopically preoccupied with a diversion that it took away his capability and intent on the main goal."…

Go to this episode on rnz.co.nz for more details