Does anything mean anything? If so, how do we know? And if all we have are words to define other words, what is the origin of language itself? Poet Amir Sulaiman and rapper Brother Ali are back with Mo and AZ to discuss the origins of the universe, language evolution, and, well, everything. 

Guests: Amir Sulaiman, Brother Ali

ORIGINAL AUDIO PRODUCTION, MUSIC & SOUND DESIGN BY SALT

Executive Produced by Mo Amer, Azhar Usman, Noah Gersh, Jamie Schefman, Nick Panama, Kenzi Wilbur

Head of Creative: Jordan Galvan 

Head of Production: Liz LeMay

Head of Post Production: Robert Adler

Producers: Imran Ali Malik & Aaron Kennedy 

Supervising Producers: Allie Strobel & Alice Bearn

Post Production Supervisor: Aly Honoré

Post Production Coordinator: Jax Raffle 

Edited by: Geoffrey Mutchnik and Aaron Kennedy 

Sound Design and Music by: Matthew Chilelli

Mixed by: Aaron Kennedy 

Recorded by Aaron Kennedy, Zack Djurich and Mario Borgatta 

Guest Booking by Drive Entertainment and Hager Eldaas

Additional music courtesy of Extreme Music.

Joking Not Joking is a Luminary Original, and a co-production between SALT, Legally Homeless, Inc., and Numinous Company, Inc.