The Messy Middle Matters

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack a workplace tension that’s all too familiar: what happens when incentives, outputs, and motivation aren’t aligned. They begin by defining key terms: intrinsic incentives (such as purpose or pride), extrinsic incentives (like pay or praise), and outputs (the tangible results of one's work). Then, they dive into two primary sources of misalignment: Conflicting incentives between teams, crafts, or departments Leadership messages that don’t match real decisions or rewards With real-life examples, they explore the awkward dynamics that arise when your motivation doesn't match the system you're working in. Whether it's security versus speed, innovation versus client demands, or personal growth versus team goals, misalignment can erode culture, trust, and progress. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

Belonging to a team can be deeply fulfilling, but what happens when that sense of loyalty starts to conflict with your growth in your craft? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the tension between short-term team alignment and long-term career development. They explore what it means to be loyal to your project team, your department, or your craft, especially in roles like program management, design, and marketing, where craft-specific communities may be smaller or less visible. From navigating conflicting priorities to finding time for your own professional development, they offer insights for both individual contributors and leaders. Expect practical strategies, relatable stories, and a reminder that the messy middle is where real growth happens. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback

Why does everything feel urgent all the time — and what does it cost us? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the toll of poor prioritization on teams, leaders, and organizations.  From the illusion of decision-making to the chaos of shifting priorities, they explore the mental and operational burnout that comes when no one says no. They offer practical tools for creating clarity, setting boundaries, and making prioritization a leadership discipline, not just a labeling exercise.  Whether you're the one setting the priorities or trying to survive them, this episode offers validation and strategies for pushing back on the pressure. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

What do people mean when they say someone is “too senior”? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the layered, often coded ways the word "senior" is used in hiring and professional contexts.  From recruiter conversations to team dynamics, the term is frequently a stand-in for other qualities—such as executive presence, high salary expectations, and perceived difficulty to manage—that often reveal unspoken biases. They explore the disconnect between titles and actual responsibilities, challenge the euphemistic use of senior, and call for clearer, more honest language in describing skills and roles.  If you’ve ever been told you’re too much or not enough without a clear why, this episode is for you. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

What do you do when a talented team member has outgrown what your organization can offer? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the rarely discussed topic of supporting team members who are ready to move on, not because they've failed, but because they’ve grown. From recognizing career ceilings to embracing talent mobility, they explore how letting go can be an act of leadership, not loss. You’ll hear practical strategies for navigating these moments with honesty, generosity, and long-term vision, turning exits into alumni relationships and potential into legacy. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into a frustrating contradiction many professionals have experienced: the same companies that go out of their way to hire the brightest minds often turn around and disempower them the moment they arrive. From micromanagement to fear-based leadership, they examine the organizational dynamics that hinder strong talent and the downstream consequences for innovation, retention, and culture. With real-life stories and a healthy dose of kiki, they unpack why some leaders can’t “let go,” what it looks like when trust is missing, and how insecurity at the top often trickles down into broken systems. You’ll hear practical strategies for both managers and employees, whether you’re trying to create space for others to shine or just trying to breathe under someone else's heavy hand. If you’ve ever been hired for your strategic mind but treated like a task rabbit, this one’s for you.   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee explore the language used in hiring, specifically the overused and often problematic terms “rockstar” and “unicorn.” They unpack how these labels, while meant to signal excellence, can set unrealistic expectations and perpetuate individualism over collaboration. Along the way, they highlight the real risks of unicorn hunting, the myth of the full-stack engineer, and why generalists deserve more love. They also explore different “letter-shaped” professionals (T-shaped, I-shaped, M-shaped, and more) and discuss how mismatched job titles, overloaded expectations, and leadership insecurity can hinder team performance. And yes, they even tip their hats to The Bangles while rethinking what being a “rockstar” really means at work. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee delve into the evolving landscape of personal branding, beginning with the notion that LinkedIn is no longer just a digital resume. From resharing posts to publishing thought leadership, today’s professionals are expected to build a visible, credible presence that extends far beyond job titles and bullet points. They reflect on the growing pressure to “show your work” online, how social algorithms shape visibility, and why blogging, podcasting, and even experimenting with AI can become practical tools in your branding toolkit. They also speak candidly about how hard it is to maintain a consistent presence—especially when you're already stretched thin—and why giving yourself grace matters just as much as hitting publish. Whether you’re just starting to show up online or trying to find your rhythm again, this episode offers both commiseration and encouragement. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

Taking notes isn’t always busywork; it can be a power move. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the underrated but essential skill of effective note-taking in the workplace. They reflect on how their own approach has evolved from admin duty to strategic tool and explore why the person writing the notes often holds more influence than you think. From capturing decisions to controlling narratives, they share tactical advice on building a taxonomy, structuring your notes, and knowing what not to include. Whether you're tired of always being “the note taker” or looking to use your notes to drive strategy, this episode will shift how you see the role and the value it brings. They also get real about AI tools, human nuance, and how to set yourself and your team up for success in the messy middle of meetings. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7 

We've all been there—staring at a calendar invite with a cryptic title and no context, then spending the meeting trying to figure out why you're even there. In this episode, Indra and Amanda tackle the all-too-familiar plague of purposeless meetings. From weekly leadership check-ins to post-meeting debriefs about the next meeting, they unpack the hidden cost of unclear gatherings: time, energy, morale, and productivity. They also offer practical tips for spotting meetings that should never happen—and tools to make the ones that do more effective and engaging. Whether you love a good working session or loathe yet another calendar clog, this one's for you. Let’s stop gathering without a goal. Useful Links: Meeting Design (book): https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/meeting-design/  Fixable Episode featuring Priya Parker from May 12, 2025 (podcast episode): https://podcasts.apple.com/zw/podcast/how-to-fix-meetings-w-master-fixer-priya-parker/id1677016372?i=1000708057390  The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker: https://www.priyaparker.com/book-art-of-gathering  Lean Coffee (a methodology for meetings that do not have a structure): https://agilecoffee.com/leancoffee/ The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the complex role of titles and credentials in professional life. From HRIS databases that never quite get it right to the very real ways marginalized folks use credentials as armor, this conversation explores how titles are used, misused, and misunderstood. They explore how titles can signal authority, invite (or block) collaboration, and even become tools of gatekeeping. You'll hear insights on how to navigate the mismatch between internal job classifications and your public-facing identity, the difference between strategic self-representation and rigid hierarchy, and why titles never tell the whole story—but still matter deeply. Whether you're a people leader trying to make equitable org charts, or someone trying to translate your experience for a new industry, this episode offers clarity, nuance, and maybe even a little permission to rewrite your title on your own terms.   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the difference between scarcity and abundance mindsets—starting with a “zero-sum game” pizza analogy (yes, pizza 🍕). They explore how our beliefs about resources, success, and competition shape how we lead, collaborate, and show up in the world. Drawing on The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek, Indra shares how this framework helps leaders break out of short-term, win-or-lose thinking and into a more sustainable, collective approach. Amanda adds insights on how abundance isn’t about being naïve—it’s about being curious, strategic, and generous, even in high-pressure environments. Whether you're navigating workplace dynamics, managing a team, or just trying to break free of zero-sum thinking, this episode offers real tools for shifting your mindset—and helping others shift theirs. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback 

Soft skills: everyone talks about them, few people define them, and even fewer get help building them. In this episode, Indra and Amanda dig into the nuanced world of interpersonal and emotional intelligence—the unspoken skills that make or break how we collaborate, lead, and show up at work. From navigating conflict and giving feedback to facilitating meetings and reading the room, they explore why soft skills often surface in high-stakes moments... and why most training programs barely scratch the surface. They share real talk on: Whether soft skills are innate or learned Why these abilities require practice, not just theory How to start small and build confidence in safe spaces And how to listen to podcasts, panels, or even reality shows with a soft-skills lens   This episode is a reminder that emotional intelligence isn’t fluff—it’s foundational. And like any skill, it can be trained, strengthened, and occasionally pulled in for emergency use. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the often overlooked power of Project, Program, and Operations Managers (PMs), the PMs who hold organizations together behind the scenes. As companies cut budgets, these critical roles are frequently the first to go. However, eliminating the very people who create clarity, enable execution, and manage complexity can have long-term consequences. This episode defines the distinctions between PM roles and highlights the invisible, high-impact work they do, like change management, stakeholder alignment, and process improvement. It challenges the myth that PMs are just about checklists. Indra and Amanda also share how these roles are evolving, the communities shifting the conversation, and why investing in strong PMs is investing in your company’s ability to deliver. Useful Links: Generalist World: https://www.generalist.world/ Designops Assembly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/designops-assembly Levels of Program & Operations Management: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17C_0-ITv4Sh3baLtnILEgImAEftDnd1uUjHo4Hpycss/edit?usp=sharing  The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

Sometimes it takes an outsider to say what everyone on the inside is thinking but can’t express. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the value and complexity of bringing in consultants, agencies, and subject matter experts to say the quiet thing out loud. They explore how power dynamics, organizational culture, and fear of professional consequences can keep internal voices silent and why external perspectives can cut through the noise. Through real-world examples from their careers, they highlight: The benefits of outsider objectivity and “fresh eyes” When and how to bring in external voices for maximum impact The risks and resentments that can arise in these dynamics Practical tips for using consultants without eroding team trust. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback