Ep. 290 - Bonobos & Barred Owl Woes with Clobo!
Update: 2024-11-25
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Description
Cliff Barackman, James "Bobo" Fay, and Matt Pruitt catch up and dig into the headlines! Topics include:
Bonobo Aggression: https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/bonobos-the-hippy-apes-may-not-be-as-peaceful-as-once-thought/
Whales and AI: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-the-sperm-whale-phonetic-alphabet-revealed-by-ai
Barred Owl Culling: https://www.livescience.com/animals/birds/nearly-half-a-million-invasive-owls-including-their-hybrid-offspring-to-be-killed-by-us
Apes Don't Ask Questions: https://medium.com/@LazySith/why-apes-dont-ask-cce86e803a53
Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast
Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/
Bonobo Aggression: https://news.mongabay.com/2024/04/bonobos-the-hippy-apes-may-not-be-as-peaceful-as-once-thought/
Whales and AI: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-the-sperm-whale-phonetic-alphabet-revealed-by-ai
Barred Owl Culling: https://www.livescience.com/animals/birds/nearly-half-a-million-invasive-owls-including-their-hybrid-offspring-to-be-killed-by-us
Apes Don't Ask Questions: https://medium.com/@LazySith/why-apes-dont-ask-cce86e803a53
Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast
Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/
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Transcript
00:00:00
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:00:02
Big foot and beyond with cliff and bobo.
00:00:08
These guys are your favorites.
00:00:10
So like to subscribe and rate it.
00:00:13
Five stones.
00:00:14
Big foot and beyond.
00:00:18
Greatest to know on this.
00:00:19
Where are they listening or watching?
00:00:21
Remember always keep it's watching here.
00:00:26
And now your hosts, Chris Berkman and James are boob-o-fay.
00:00:31
What happened, bobs?
00:00:32
Tell us, man.
00:00:34
Well, we were collecting wood.
00:00:36
And with being part of this last year, going up the bluff and cutting down the e-modrons.
00:00:45
And we were storing it all at his house because he's got like 20 acres and he's up in the sun more.
00:00:49
And it drives better.
00:00:51
There doesn't try to get here on the coast.
00:00:53
It just tastes pretty wet.
00:00:54
So anyways, we were stacking it all up there.
00:00:56
We had different piles, like from different trips and stuff.
00:00:59
And then so I went up there and processed it one day.
00:01:02
Like kind of just put everything like separate it and like what's the need to be split?
00:01:07
And just all that kind of like just organized it so we could split it up.
00:01:11
Because this is his truck and he drove and all that.
00:01:15
So I was like, OK, you get more.
00:01:16
And like, you know, like 60, 40, something like that.
00:01:19
65, 35 split.
00:01:21
And so I went up there and I was like a month ago before it started raining.
00:01:24
I was like, here's a big storm coming to you.
00:01:27
So you were raining like, I got tarps.
00:01:28
We got tarps.
00:01:29
He's like, no, I got tarps up there.
00:01:30
I'm like, he's always so busy.
00:01:33
I was like, I'll just come up and do it.
00:01:34
He's like, my worst man here right now.
00:01:36
Like, I don't come here right now.
00:01:38
And I'm like, dude, he's got to get covers.
00:01:39
I promise I'll cover it.
00:01:40
I go, all right, I just had this thing he wouldn't.
00:01:43
Like I didn't.
00:01:44
Sure, it just dumped.
00:01:45
Like, I don't know how many, like seven inches or something so far.
00:01:48
And it just all got rehydrated.
00:01:51
Like, it's like soaking wet now.
00:01:53
So I got, I'm doing all this wet wood again.
00:01:56
This is the seventh.
00:01:57
You don't know how to wet wood going into the winter.
00:02:00
Well, yeah, and your house, I mean, I haven't been there since Karita moved in.
00:02:05
Honestly, he's been here since I've been there.
00:02:06
But I don't know what she could have done about the air leak and through.
00:02:09
I'm sure it's a lot nicer and it's vacuumed occasionally and it's clean and stuff like that, which is a new addition, so to speak.
00:02:17
But what can she do about the structure of the house?
00:02:20
You need heat because you're right on the beach and it's cold and the wind blows through.
00:02:26
Yeah, it's 120-year-old house.
00:02:29
We dug into the walls and we found like old newspaper and redwood shavings.
00:02:34
And there was like, they probably filled it up when it happened, but it all settled down into like a foot thick pile of mulch at the bottom, all along the walls.
00:02:43
Like inside the walls, between the drywall and the outside planking.
00:02:48
And so it's just like these crazy fire traps, you know?
00:02:52
Yeah, it's going to say you're using kindling to insulate your house.
00:02:57
Yeah, I didn't realize that you lived there before Curita Moof did.
00:03:00
So that's funny where you're like, oh, sweet home, baby.
00:03:04
Yeah, it was cool.
00:03:05
You should see it, it was dope.
00:03:08
I've never seen pictures or actually, is that where you were in that maligned Hulu documentary?
00:03:15
Oh, yeah, that was my living room.
00:03:16
Yeah, it looked cool.
00:03:18
That's because that was my stuff.
00:03:21
The whole place used to be cool.
00:03:23
Dude, I've been there a lot, man.
00:03:25
It wasn't always cool.
00:03:26
They had good decorations.
00:03:28
Like the Eric Cartman stuffed animal that was entirely black from mold, like that kind of decoration.
00:03:34
Oh, sentimental.
00:03:36
I know it was, but that's just one of several things, man.
00:03:39
That was pretty gross.
00:03:41
That was pretty gross, man.
00:03:43
It's been in various stages throughout the years.
00:03:45
And sometimes, you know, it was very nice.
00:03:48
I mean, don't get me wrong, very, very well taken care of and really cool decorations and that kind of stuff.
00:03:53
And then other times it was a labyrinth of piled up stuff you had to navigate to get to the kitchen, you know?
00:03:59
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:00
Yeah, but it was always, it wasn't like gross stuff, like moldy plates or stuff like that.
00:04:05
Or I always cleaned the kitchen in the bathroom and everything.
00:04:08
I didn't mind like, stuff junk being everywhere.
00:04:11
Like, just as long as it wasn't like, you know, gonna cause germs and stuff.
00:04:15
So watch the curtains right now just blowing.
00:04:17
It looks like they're going like the white curtains are like moving stuff at the wind.
00:04:21
It blew one down like a little while ago.
00:04:23
There's so much air coming through like the broken window, like it's so offset like there's big gaps and stuff.
00:04:29
And it's pretty cold.
00:04:31
I bet it's pretty cold, pretty cold.
00:04:34
Yeah, and maybe spooky, you know, but in the beyond and the big foot and beyond here.
00:04:38
Yeah.
00:04:39
I seem to remember a treadmill.
00:04:42
Yeah, you said, didn't you have a treadmill in your living room at one point?
00:04:45
Well, that was my inverter, my back stretchers thing.
00:04:48
Oh, okay.
00:04:49
I remember sleeping on the ground out there in your living room one time.
00:04:52
I think Flippy and Brianna were over and stuff.
00:04:55
And then, oh yeah, the bobcat movie.
00:04:58
Was that what it was?
00:04:59
Okay, that makes sense.
00:05:00
Yeah, it was a little quick from there.
00:05:02
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:02
I remember having to sleep, put my head upon something like that.
00:05:04
I think it was, I thought it was a treadmill, but maybe I'm not remembering correctly.
00:05:09
Yeah, going to sleep on that because there wasn't a lot of floor space left.
00:05:12
Right.
00:05:14
But enough for me to lay down on.
00:05:15
Which is all I really need.
00:05:16
Yeah, I have a lot of stuff around.
00:05:19
Oh, man.
00:05:19
So something cool happened in the shop this week.
00:05:21
What's that?
00:05:23
A woman, an older woman.
00:05:24
I mean, she was probably in her 80s, I'm guessing.
00:05:27
I'm not really sure.
00:05:28
And her three daughters who were probably in their 50s and 60s or so.
00:05:34
I'd lean more towards 60s, but hopefully they're not listening.
00:05:38
So, I don't know, especially if they're 50s, you know.
00:05:41
But anyway, she came in and her name was Ellery and she was married to a dude named Ken back in the day.
00:05:48
Ken and Ellery lived on a property outside a salier that was owned by Jerry Crue.
00:05:55
No way.
00:05:56
Yeah, and everybody there, like the woman and her daughters, all knew Jerry Crue.
00:06:03
They all knew him because they lived on the same property and it just had great things to say about him about what a great guy was and how honorable he was.
00:06:12
And I went to the same church.
00:06:14
So they came into the museum and I sat down and had a long conversation with them and they kind of reminisced.
00:06:20
They kept referring to John Crue, who's a friend of mine.
00:06:23
John is the oldest son of Jerry Crue.
00:06:27
I have a very long, about 45 minutes interview with John Crue that I videotape back in the day.
00:06:32
They've never released someone.
00:06:33
Oh, it's super cool.
00:06:35
But they kept referring to him as Hyram for some reason.
00:06:38
I guess Hyram, I believe, is his first name and John might be his middle name, is what I gathered.
00:06:43
But I've always known him as John, of course.
00:06:45
And of course, John is just a little boy at the time.
00:06:49
And I believe that they knew Jerry in the early, early, early 60s, I believe.
00:06:55
I don't think it was '58 when the cast was taken in all that jazz.
00:06:58
I think it was the early 60s.
00:07:00
Did they never met Jerry's first wife?
00:07:03
And if people who don't know Jerry's first wife, and I'm afraid I don't know her name, died tragically in a house fire out in that general area,
00:07:13
unfortunately.
00:07:14
So John and his sister were orphaned at that time.
00:07:18
And then Jerry eventually remarried and then had a few more kids.
00:07:22
And that's where Wade came from.
00:07:23
We met Jerry-- we met John and Wade.
00:07:26
John is a product of the first marriage.
00:07:28
And his mother was killed.
00:07:30
And then Wade is a product of the second marriage.
00:07:34
And I've never met the sister.
00:07:35
So I don't know their names, unfortunately, either.
00:07:37
But she came in and had had a lot of great things to say.
00:07:39
I recorded the interview, of course, as I do for most historic interviews.
00:07:44
If they allow me, otherwise, I just take copious notes.
00:07:47
She brought in a couple artifacts as well.
00:07:49
She brought in a photograph of Jerry and his second wife with the two kids.
00:07:53
And Jerry, of course, was beaming.
00:07:55
And they're all super happy.
00:07:56
And he has got a super slick tie and a buttoned down shirt, sort of short sleeve shirt on.
00:08:02
And she's got this cool 50s or really 60s dress on.
00:08:06
Really, really, I just love the style from that time.
00:08:09
By the way, it's absolutely love it.
00:08:10
It's so sharp with the thin ties.
00:08:12
It's kind of like a FBI look.
00:08:15
And I like that look a lot.
00:08:16
I'm not sure I can pull it off.
00:08:18
I'm not really thin enough for that.
00:08:19
But it just looks so sharp.
00:08:21
And then she brought in another artifact, which I'd never seen before.
00:08:25
And it was super, super cool.
00:08:28
She brought in an original program from Jerry Cruz Funeral.
00:08:33
Yeah, and I've never seen such a thing.
00:08:35
And it was cool.
00:08:36
And the Funeral was held on December 6, 1993 in Gladstone, Oregon, because Jerry Cruz had moved up to the area by then.
00:08:45
He was working, I think for Boeing or something like that.
00:08:48
He was an airline mechanic for Boeing, I believe, for I guess based on his heavy machinery skills at the time.
00:08:54
And of course, honorary Paul Bears at the Funeral, it lists all this sort of stuff.
00:08:58
You have John Cruz, oh, H.
00:09:00
John Cruz.
00:09:01
And so I guess that's Hiram John Cruz.
00:09:02
You have John M.
00:09:04
Cruz, not exactly sure who that is.
00:09:06
Wade Crue, the other son, and Mark and Jack Oleys Schlager, I believe, and at Ken Rose.
00:09:12
And Ken Rose is the notable mention here, because that's this woman's husband.
00:09:17
So they were obviously very close to the crew family.
00:09:21
And the fact that they came in and brought these things to share with us.
00:09:24
And they didn't donate the pictures and the program and stuff.
00:09:27
But they let me scan them for the archives.
00:09:30
So we have a record of them now.
00:09:32
They just let little artifacts like that, which has never seen before, and what a lovely visit with the family as well.
00:09:39
So it's kind of a neat thing that happened at the shop this past week.
00:09:42
I want to share with you, except that you get a kick out of that.
00:09:45
That's cool.
00:09:46
It's one of the neat things about the shop in general.
00:09:48
So you just never know who's going to pop by.
00:09:50
People that you never even thought of existing.
00:09:52
Oh, this is also pretty neat, right?
00:09:53
So I kind of was throwing names at her.
00:09:55
Like, did you ever meet John Green?
00:09:56
And she goes, I don't know who that is.
00:09:57
And Renee is like this honorary dude with an accent from Europe.
00:10:01
No, I don't know who that is.
00:10:03
That kind of stuff.
00:10:04
I said, well, Al Hodgson.
00:10:05
Oh, yeah, we knew Al.
00:10:06
Of course, we knew Al, everybody knew Al.
00:10:07
Because they lived in Salier, of course.
00:10:10
So they were in Willow Creek all the time.
00:10:12
So pretty small town.
00:10:13
And everybody knows Al Hodgson.
00:10:15
But she also mentioned going over to Betty Allen's house.
00:10:19
Oh, no kidding.
00:10:21
Betty Allen says, oh, yeah, she was a really-- no nonsense sort of lady in this journal.
00:10:26
And she was telling me about Betty Allen.
00:10:27
And then, of course, I know who Betty Allen is.
00:10:30
I think most connoisseurs of Bigfoot history probably know who Betty Allen is.
00:10:34
But for those people who are just casual fans, fishy and autos, enthusiasts of the Bigfoot subject, like probably the majority of our listeners,
00:10:44
I'm guessing.
00:10:45
Betty Allen was one of the early, early journalist investigating it.
00:10:50
I'm not sure I would call her a researcher per se.
00:10:54
But she wrote for the Humboldt Times newspaper.
00:10:55
And she was kind of collecting stories at the time.
00:10:58
She's one of the first people to write about the Jerry Cruz stuff.
00:11:01
In fact, I believe John Crue kind of mentioned that maybe Jerry and Betty in between marriages maybe had a thing for each other.
00:11:09
I mean, they're very moral people.
00:11:10
I don't think they had a fling necessarily.
00:11:12
But I think they had a liken for one another, like one of those things.
00:11:15
That's what it sounded like.
00:11:17
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:18
They had a good-- looking at Jerry in his thin tie and buttoned down like, who wouldn't, right?
00:11:22
He's a stud, dude.
00:11:23
That guy was ripped.
00:11:25
I see a picture of one of the family had, like, if him and his T-shirt like split wood or something, he was like, dude, was jacked.
00:11:33
Oh, yeah.
00:11:33
He was a logger and a road builder, right?
00:11:35
I mean, those folks are generally that jacked, as you say.
00:11:40
Speaking of celebrities that were known back when, I worked with a woman who grew up with money maker and the money maker family.
00:11:49
Really?
00:11:50
Wasn't Heidi Fleiss, was it?
00:11:51
No, no, no.
00:11:52
But when she said she goes, I get with that one bigger.
00:11:56
They all said, my face just was like, my eyes popped open.
00:11:59
My mouth went open.
00:11:59
I was just like, oh, it's just like speeches for like a second.
00:12:03
I just go, oh, I can feel like started talking about that.
00:12:06
I was just like, when I first started there, and there were a lot of people that were interested in the show and that kind of stuff.
00:12:13
And I was just like, no, this guy, I'm like-- most of them didn't know what it was, or who was who, or anything.
00:12:19
And I was like, this guy, you don't have to know him.
00:12:22
But to meet someone that knew him back when, is like a treat.
00:12:26
And so I was like, what's she like?
00:12:28
And she goes, well, I didn't know him.
00:12:31
She goes, I knew him, and I say, well, she goes, we used to ride to like some school, like our after school function, like they're in some car pool.
00:12:39
I'm not sure what it all was, but she used to be-- and she was really good friends with Matt Sister.
00:12:45
And I say, what was she like?
00:12:47
She goes, he was very, very smart.
00:12:50
And he talked incessantly.
00:12:53
And he explained everything.
00:12:54
And he popped up, he would explain it to everyone.
00:12:57
Like he was like a teacher, like a professor.
00:13:00
Even as a young kid.
00:13:01
That's hilarious.
00:13:03
Well, anyway, should we get on with the episode here?
00:13:05
This is a topical episode about we do this every month or two or something, where Boba and I, and Matt, of course, whenever we're reading through the news, because we're all rather well-read people.
00:13:14
When we're reading through the news, and some news item comes up, or some research paper comes up, and we think that it has something to do with Sasquatches in some sort of way, usually not directly,
00:13:24
very often, tangentially.
00:13:25
We kind of emailed it, emailed those particular links to Matt Pruitt.
00:13:30
And every few months or something like that, we get together and kind of talk about some of these things.
00:13:34
So it's one of your favorite clobo episodes, where we all kind of get together.
00:13:38
And now, of course, clobo is our power couple named Boba.
00:13:40
And I, but we don't have a Matt Pruitt in there somehow.
00:13:43
I don't know how we're going to get Matt-- - clobo-pruitt.
00:13:46
- clobo-pruitt?
00:13:47
- Yeah.
00:13:48
- I think we can do better than that one.
00:13:50
- You guys are like family.
00:13:51
[LAUGHTER]
00:13:53
You'll take my surname, of course.
00:13:55
[LAUGHTER]
00:13:58
All right, well, let's just take the articles in order here is what we have them on the screen.
00:14:03
So the first article, it comes from mongabe.com.
00:14:08
But it was, again, all over the news.
00:14:10
And these news items are kind of like that to get regurgitated by their news outlets from various forms.
00:14:15
This one is about bonobos, of course, one of the great ape species that we have still living.
00:14:22
There aren't very many left.
00:14:24
And the title of this article is called bonobos.
00:14:26
The quote unquote hippie apes may not be as peaceful as once thought.
00:14:32
- Yeah, this was a Bobo submission.
00:14:34
Because he had read this article when we were talking about the fact that bonobos do engage in some conflict, but usually that doesn't result in death as opposed to chimpanzees.
00:14:44
Bobo had mentioned that he had seen an article saying, well, just because they don't resort to killing each other doesn't mean they're as peaceful as they seem to be.
00:14:52
So this was a Bobo submission.
00:14:54
- Yeah, the crazy parts are three times more incidents of violence.
00:14:58
They just don't escalate to that top tier of chimpicide.
00:15:03
- Chimpicide, right?
00:15:05
Good word, actually.
00:15:06
Yeah, and of course, bonobos are, people probably know this, but just in case, I mean, don't know how much other people know about the great apes in general.
00:15:15
Probably not very much because a lot of people throw, like, you know, Sasquatches aren't dumb apes.
00:15:19
There aren't no dumb apes, actually, it turns out.
00:15:21
- Trump has to disagree.
00:15:23
- Well, he didn't say dumb.
00:15:25
He said dirty filthy, didn't he?
00:15:27
- Dirty filthy.
00:15:28
- I was good to say, I know a few, but nobody's perfect.
00:15:32
- Yeah, but you don't know any dumb orangutans.
00:15:35
- That's true.
00:15:36
- That's true, mostly those homo sapiens.
00:15:38
- Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
00:15:44
We'll be right back after these messages.
00:15:46
(upbeat music)
00:15:48
- Yeah, but anyway, bonobos are known as like hippie apes because they have a proclivity for having sex, basically,
00:15:59
to solve problems, you know, like free love sort of stuff.
00:16:02
- And they smell like crap.
00:16:03
- And they smell like crap, or patchouli.
00:16:05
- Yeah.
00:16:06
- Fine line, really.
00:16:07
Yeah, but, and of course, they have a reputation as being non-violent, but, you know, that's apparently not as true as people would like to believe,
00:16:18
essentially, because of the aggressive acts among bonobos, particularly amongst themselves, you know, their own tribe, so to speak.
00:16:27
But, you know, the thing about this article that really struck me is like, okay, so bonobos are just like every other wild animal that they solve things through force sometimes.
00:16:36
Okay, that's not that surprising, honestly, to me.
00:16:39
But what I think it does show is that there's like this nuance to studying animal behavior that I think that a lot of humans overlook perhaps.
00:16:53
Maybe that's the right way to do it.
00:16:55
You know, humans like things to be packaged very simply, black and white, this is the way it is.
00:17:00
And almost every subject, and certainly animal behavior would be far, far more nuanced than that, that a circumstances dictate.
00:17:09
And things are not, aren't always this, or aren't always any such way, you know?
00:17:14
- Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting insight, 'cause yeah, it is covering a paper that, I'm not certain if it's behind a paywall or not, but the paper was published in current biology, so I haven't seen the entire paper,
00:17:24
but reading this overview, for sure.
00:17:27
I know it's questioning a lot of things like the, you know, the self-domestication hypothesis, which seems to apply to human beings, and so they've taken, you know, the lessons that we've inferred from human evolution and applied it to the,
00:17:41
quote, unquote, hippie ape, but then realizing like, oh, that might not be at all applicable.
00:17:46
So it's definitely an interesting read and insightful, because yeah, until Bobo had mentioned this in our last Bonobo discussion, trying to say Bobo and Bonobo in the same sentence is kind of tricky.
00:17:57
Maybe I'm the dumb ape, but yeah, I was not aware that there was this level of aggression, et cetera, so it's definitely interesting.
00:18:07
You know, I think if you crossed Bobo with a chimpanzee, you would get a Bonobo.
00:18:11
(laughing)
00:18:12
Yeah, I like that.
00:18:14
(laughing)
00:18:16
The number of people that call Bobo Bono in our comments, because the phone auto-corrects Bobo to Bono, like the guy from YouTube, so it always kind of giggle with people are like, I love Bono,
00:18:26
he's my favorite.
00:18:27
(laughing)
00:18:28
I never think of it as, I never think of it as Bono from YouTube, I think of it as Sunny Bono.
00:18:34
Yeah, which would you prefer, Bobo?
00:18:37
- Bonobo.
00:18:38
- Bonobo, very good.
00:18:40
(laughing)
00:18:42
But you know, so as all articles on apes generally end, they talk about conservation efforts, of course, because all ape species are endangered at this point.
00:18:55
But I was kind of shocked to find that 15,000 bonobos are left, that's all there is, 15,000.
00:19:02
Not that many, that's probably, you know, less than twice as many as Sasquatches, you know, in the world, in the world.
00:19:10
But you know, speaking of Sasquatches, getting back to that, don't we see the same behavior in Sasquatches?
00:19:15
- We don't know how much they fight amongst themselves.
00:19:20
- No, but we can kind of extrapolate some things perhaps on how much, how many people are killed every year by Sasquatches, and what, and other kind of behaviors they exhibit towards us.
00:19:33
- Right, that's true.
00:19:34
- I know it's not within the species, of course.
00:19:37
But the fact that they throw rocks and try to scare us, or you know, pound on walls, or beat their chests, or break trees, or pound their feet against the ground, that kind of stuff, versus actually coming up and just snapping our spine,
00:19:49
which every single one of them easily could do.
00:19:51
I think that there's some reflective behavior there, you know, that kind of reflects what we're actually looking at.
00:19:57
- I agree, yeah, yeah, it shows more thought process for sure, if we attack them, it's not just gonna work out.
00:20:06
I think they know they bluff, bluff, bluff, and don't cause an injury or something that they're, they're gonna get their point across, they usually get the way they want,
00:20:16
the person leads, and then they don't have a bunch of guys with flashing lights on their horseless carriages, kind of what they're bangsticks.
00:20:24
- Their bow is like, what are you talking about?
00:20:25
It settled in, I think, and I know what you're talking about now.
00:20:28
- What do you think, Proud?
00:20:30
- I think a lot of it probably has to do with energy efficiency and the fact that, you know, they don't have to approach very closely, they can make intimidating noises from a distance and still from behind cover with some security and separation.
00:20:41
And so they probably never had to physically attack a person.
00:20:46
You know, I'm certain, you know, it's probably happened.
00:20:49
There's no way that, you know, most animals have attacked people across all species where humans and animals interact.
00:20:56
So I'm not saying it's impossible, but you would just think that, you know, for apes that war, let's say, among each other, like the chimpanzees do, you know, they're fighting over a resource, whether that resource is females or food resource that's within a territory,
00:21:11
et cetera.
00:21:11
Sasquatches wouldn't be battling us for territory in that same regard.
00:21:15
It's not like they're running us out of our own houses or something, and they wouldn't do that by killing.
00:21:20
And so it probably is much more efficient to just make a few sounds and have the humans leave in many cases, never ever return than it would be to constantly, you know,
00:21:30
expose themselves to the risk of physical harm by actually making physical contact with a person.
00:21:36
- There was something in this study as well that tied the survival strategies is what they refer to it as, of bonobos to successful mating essentially.
00:21:49
You know, they commented that chimpanzees, they kind of like gang up on other animals.
00:21:53
You know, they hunt in troops.
00:21:54
They build alliances with other chimps.
00:21:58
So they can attack in mobs, essentially.
00:22:00
It's what they, they didn't say that, but that's essentially what they're doing.
00:22:03
They get a bunch of friends together and then they have a gang fight, you know, it's like the sweat hugs versus the so-and-so, right?
00:22:10
But they found with bonobos, it's more individual.
00:22:14
And the individual bonobos that are perhaps a little bit more aggressive tend to build stronger bonds with other individual females.
00:22:24
And they think that that has something to do with their success in mating, as opposed to like a group survival thing.
00:22:32
And they even suggested that this individual relationship that these aggressive bonobos build might be something akin to, you know, friendships in human society.
00:22:44
Which, you know, makes sense because, you know, Melissa and I were friends long before we were married, you know, we're actually not that long before we were married, but still, you know what I'm saying?
00:22:51
Like, I think there's some sort of, I guess, parallel in human society as well.
00:22:56
And probably in SAS Quaches.
00:22:58
Because now, again, based on the evidence that I have personally observed in the woods, personally observed.
00:23:04
Not what other people they're telling me, not speculations, but what I've personally seen.
00:23:08
There seems to be a, like where I have found female, presumably female footprints, the 14 inches.
00:23:17
And I base set on the fact that we're also finding smaller individual footprints with it.
00:23:23
In one case, it's the 12.
00:23:24
In another case, it's an 8-inch footprint.
00:23:26
So I'm assuming those 14s.
00:23:28
There's one male in the area for each of these.
00:23:31
I had a 17-inch foot and a 15-inch foot.
00:23:34
And then another area, I'm assuming that those are males.
00:23:37
They may not be, but I'm assuming that those are males at this point.
00:23:40
There's not like a troop of males running around here.
00:23:43
So maybe that individual thing applies here as well.
00:23:47
And as far as being the biggest baddest of them all, maybe in one area that we work, it's a lot closer to civilization than the other.
00:23:58
And that male, if it is a male, has a foot about 15-inch as long.
00:24:02
But the other area, which is much further from where anybody, any humans, would live, and also has some of the best habitat you could ask for, that's the 17-inch individual.
00:24:16
And certainly the 17-inch foot would be associated with a very large Sasquatch, like a really big Sasquatch, and which would be the strongest, biggest baddest guy around,
00:24:26
of course.
00:24:27
Now, more aggressive, we don't know without seeing behavior, of course.
00:24:30
But you can certainly suggest that, at least, to me at least.
00:24:35
Yeah, that would be much more analogous to other mammals like to think of apes, like orangutans in the same way.
00:24:41
And the males have a very large territory that encompasses multiple females whose territories or home ranges are significantly smaller.
00:24:47
But the same is true of bears and tigers and a host of other animals, mountain lions, on and on and on.
00:24:53
I wish I could read the full paper about the Benobos to see how they compare to chimpanzees, because they are obviously so closely related, but markedly different in ways that this paper outlines.
00:25:04
But in the case of chimpanzees, the females are not discriminant madeers.
00:25:10
They'll basically mate totally and discriminantly with any male.
00:25:13
And so all the competition happens between the males and then whatever dominant male wins gets the mating rights.
00:25:20
And so there's that kind of competition that happens and very often whatever male rises to the upper echelon of the troop, usually there's a tremendous amount of reciprocity involved.
00:25:30
Friends to walls work covers this fairly extensively in that.
00:25:34
At least within chimpanzee troops, like the most aggressive males usually don't have a very long tenure at the top, because they'll be displaced by a more cooperative band,
00:25:45
even if they're subordinate smaller males, but they're working cooperatively and they have reciprocal behaviors.
00:25:51
Whereas this sounds like to your point, the males are much more individualized that they're not necessarily forming those same kind of coalitions with other males.
00:25:59
- Right, right, coalitions.
00:26:01
- Yeah, watch that chimpanzee that was around watching all that stuff.
00:26:05
- I still haven't seen it.
00:26:06
- You haven't?
00:26:07
- No, I haven't seen it.
00:26:09
- Dude, it's great, you gotta watch it.
00:26:11
- I might try to find, see if I can get that original paper from current biology and can dig into that and read the full details.
00:26:18
- Well, certainly somebody who listens to this podcast probably has access to that kind of thing, some of the institution or something.
00:26:24
- Yeah, the frustrating thing, you know, there's a few sources.
00:26:26
Sometimes you can find things on Google Scholar or jstore, et cetera, academia.edu, but at least with academia.edu, they bombard you with emails and they're just so ridiculous.
00:26:39
And then, you know, sometimes, like, I guess there's more than one, like, Matt Pruitt.
00:26:45
I might even just be signed up as like, Impruitt.
00:26:48
And so I get constant emails saying like, are you the Impruitt that wrote and it's some wild paper, you know, by some other person?
00:26:56
And there's no way to unsubscribe from those.
00:26:59
So I've stopped using academia.edu because their email notifications are so obnoxious.
00:27:06
- You know, there is a website that'll tell you how many other people in the country have your name.
00:27:11
- There's another guitar player here in town named Matt Pruitt.
00:27:14
And I've occasionally gotten emails from people like asking about how to play this song or that song of his or venues that he's played in town have tagged me in social media tonight live.
00:27:25
It's always wonder like, does this guitar player guy get weird big-foot emails from people?
00:27:31
- I hope so.
00:27:32
- I hope so too.
00:27:33
- So there's like 400 James Fays in the US.
00:27:37
♪ We'll gather around its bobo story time too ♪ ♪ He's gonna see some things that'll blow your mind classic ♪ ♪ And if you say he's lying,
00:27:50
he's gonna kick you behind ♪ ♪ For sure, once again, it's bobo story time ♪ - Any description of felonious or criminal activity is being told here strictly for entertainment purposes and is in no way an admission of guilt or even true for that matter.
00:28:07
Do you ever tell you about when I fricking got so much trouble all the time?
00:28:10
This dude had the same birthday as me, but he was like eight years older than me or 12 years older than me or something like.
00:28:16
We had the same like no middle initial James Fays, we were both like around the same size.
00:28:24
This dude was like had attempted murder like on a cop charge.
00:28:27
He was like a ex-con, like had a rap sheet like as long as your arm, like not really violent felonious and stuff and dude, I had to lay on the street on my belly so many times.
00:28:37
So like, dude, I'm not that guy.
00:28:39
'Cause I did exactly what they were doing.
00:28:41
They'd be like, they'd act like they'd do that high security threat approach, like stopping approach, like get out, stick your hands on the windows, get on the ground, I'd be like,
00:28:51
I'm not that dude.
00:28:52
I think he got a hold of my, 'cause I lost a passport one time when I was out at the bars and I was like, just turned 21 or something around there.
00:29:01
And I did have to go into like file paperwork at the Fed office down in LA 'cause my passport was being used in crimes.
00:29:10
And I guess this guy got somehow, he got, I don't know if I actually got my passport, but he got my info.
00:29:18
I started using my, like he was 12 years old.
00:29:20
He started using my birth year instead of his own.
00:29:22
And so I got somehow got mixed up with this guy.
00:29:26
And for like 10 years, it caused me a bunch of problems.
00:29:30
- I wonder how much, how many problems do you cause that other guy?
00:29:35
I think it is the same thing.
00:29:37
- I let this guy, the rager, I let him have my, when I turned 20, I was 21, whatever.
00:29:46
And he was, he was like 17 or 18.
00:29:49
And he needed to fake ID.
00:29:51
He kind of looked like me.
00:29:52
He was the same height and weight and stuff.
00:29:53
And I let him have my old ID.
00:29:58
And he showed it, he got, they were got busted for drinking beers on the beach.
00:30:02
And he showed the cops, they got cuffs and take it away.
00:30:04
His parents had to pay off his bail to get him out, which was all my tickets, I'm paid tickets.
00:30:10
So he got screwed, he got busted for fake ID.
00:30:14
And then to get out, well, he didn't get busted at the right time because they decided he was me.
00:30:19
Then he called this parents, his parents came, bailed him out.
00:30:22
The bail was all my tickets getting paid off.
00:30:25
- Amazing.
00:30:26
- Wow, got a couple impromptu Bobo's story time is going here today.
00:30:32
- Yeah.
00:30:33
- Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
00:30:38
We'll be right back after these messages.
00:30:40
- Well, you want to hop onto the next article here?
00:30:48
I think this is a pretty cool one.
00:30:50
This next one is really neat.
00:30:51
- I think it has massive implications.
00:30:54
- Oh, for sure.
00:30:55
Those guys are doing that project up in Washington state in New York.
00:31:00
They're collaborating on, I know they're writing a AI program specifically for, they're using the stuff from chimpanzees and whales and all that kind of,
00:31:12
they're trying to use that.
00:31:14
All the information they've got about getting the phenomes and all that stuff out of the whale language are applying that for a Sasquatch translation program.
00:31:25
- But I think what you could do with something like this, 'cause this particular article is about the discovery of a phonetic alphabet within sperm whales.
00:31:35
Essentially, using AI to analyze, I think they hadn't like almost 9,000 what they call codas, click sequences from the Eastern Caribbean sperm whale and using AI and like advanced machine learning,
00:31:49
et cetera.
00:31:50
They're trying to derive this language.
00:31:51
But what you could do and what I've heard people talk about is the end point of these things is that if you can derive the language of whales or dolphins or crows or canids on and on and on,
00:32:02
once you have enough of those analyzed and somehow interpretable, then you can extract the things that are common across all of those languages from which you could derive like a global animal language to some degree.
00:32:16
That there would be things that are globally common across multiple species from which you might be able to have at least some kind of very limited but almost like proto-communication with any living thing on the planet that can transmit or receive communication via sound.
00:32:35
- Yeah, just for like AI, I mean, how efficient the AI is and how it opens things up.
00:32:40
Thought there was 21 codotypes a couple of years ago and they realized after those 9,000 recordings they studied, they've identified 156 distinct codas.
00:32:49
- It's amazing.
00:32:50
- That is.
00:32:51
- And what do they define as a coder?
00:32:53
- Click sequences, click sequences.
00:32:55
That's what a Coda is.
00:32:57
- Yep, a sperm well phonetic alphabet.
00:33:00
- Right, right.
00:33:01
Okay, so it's the clicking and whatnot instead of actually vocalizing per se.
00:33:05
And I did, when I was reading through this, what struck me is that they're describing these, what do you say, codas with musical terminology.
00:33:17
You know, they were identified with rhythm, which is of course how they come out like in time.
00:33:24
You know, tempo is how fast they come out.
00:33:27
Rubato, which is how they lose that tempo, kind of slowed down to amorphous sort of a lack of rhythm.
00:33:35
It's almost like when a music slows down and speeds up again, you know, it's like, there's no strict time and an ornamentation, which would be like for drummers and would not be like flams,
00:33:46
I imagine.
00:33:47
And then what else you can do with the clicks in general?
00:33:50
And to me, that strikes a chord as being a musician.
00:33:53
It strikes a chord with me, no pun intended, because you know, music, I mean, it is a language.
00:34:00
It is, it's a lot of things.
00:34:02
And a language is kind of one of them, because musicians can in fact communicate to each other without words, you know, through the music.
00:34:11
And it doesn't surprise me at all that other animals, being a little bit closer to the source in some ways would probably do the same thing.
00:34:19
- Yeah, make sense.
00:34:22
- Can you imagine if we do reach the point where we've derived some sort of like global language across all communicative animals and could use that in the field?
00:34:32
Who knows what would show up?
00:34:34
- Oh my God, just like that stuff we drew about, could eventually become a reality.
00:34:39
That's just, it could happen, we could get there.
00:34:44
- Well, you know what?
00:34:44
A thing of value to me, at least, with this kind of study, besides just, you know, learning more about the animals themselves, you know, the big foods are sperm whales in this case or anything like that, although you kind of run in a wrist, like what if you figured out the sperm whale is saying,
00:34:57
why are you doing this to us?
00:34:59
It's like, well, that'd be a bum out, right?
00:35:00
But this kind of thing, this kind of study that these methodologies could be applied to other non-human intelligences, potentially not even from this planet.
00:35:11
Because when I see, like, SETI for example, the search for extraterrestrial intelligences, when I see programs like that, and I think those are fantastic programs, and I encourage people to learn about them,
00:35:23
and I hope that those particular programs continue.
00:35:26
I think that's a very interesting question, probably one of the most important questions we can ask ourselves, that's the species.
00:35:31
But I think that one of the faults they're in is, and I think that we're coming out of this as well, is that humans are, again, humans are very species-centric.
00:35:40
We're always looking for things like us, and it makes sense because we're the only things we really know.
00:35:45
We're looking for human-like intelligence, and even another species now.
00:35:50
All of us, as bigfooters, I'm sure, get asked about how smart bigfoot are, and the real answer is, well, you're kind of doing apples and oranges, you know?
00:35:59
We can ask how human-like their intelligence is, but that doesn't tell us how smart they are, because we're comparing something that is unfair to them.
00:36:09
They don't use their intelligence in the same way as that we do, so why would you even ask that question in that way is my thought?
00:36:16
You know, as Bobo, I said this literally this week in the museum, Bobo.
00:36:19
Someone is asking me about the intelligence level of bigfoot, and I said, well, Bobo says they're smarter than us, because they don't have jobs and they don't pay taxes, but that's not a fair measurement.
00:36:29
You know, that's not a fair calibration of how smart they are.
00:36:31
- No, 'cause it might be smarter than you and Matt.
00:36:34
(laughing)
00:36:36
- You do have a job.
00:36:37
I did want to ask, I mean, we could save it for the member section, but I'm sure the main show listeners would like an update about how the jobs are going.
00:36:45
- It's cruising, they're challenging, but I like them, I have a good time with them.
00:36:51
- I'm glad you're enjoying your job there, Bobo.
00:36:53
I'm also happy you're working with kids, man, 'cause you are like a, you know, you're fantastic with children.
00:37:00
They love you and you communicate effectively with them, and so I think that's a great job for you.
00:37:03
I'm really happy for you.
00:37:05
But, you know, getting back to this, the sperm whale thing real fast, before we go into the next topic, it reminded me that I would tell you about, I was driving home from work like last year or year before,
00:37:15
and I got pulled over by a dolphin, and I was issued a speeding citation.
00:37:21
(laughing)
00:37:22
Cliff!
00:37:23
- That might be the most dad of all the dad jokes I've heard you generate this far.
00:37:31
- Really?
00:37:32
- Yeah, that's a pretty dad joke.
00:37:34
(laughing)
00:37:37
I don't even have children that I'm aware of, so perfect.
00:37:39
And while that one is very promising, the next article is a little on the darker side, I would say, I mean, it's obviously for the greater good, or at least that's the plan,
00:37:51
and why this particular plan is being put into place, but there is an article here from a live science about the U.S.
00:37:57
Fish and Wildlife Services Plan, which has been received very controversially, obviously, to remove roughly 450,000 bardales over a 30-year period.
00:38:07
So it's a pretty extended time, and nearly half a million individuals will be removed from the Northwest in order to protect two of the native owl species, the northern spotted owl and the California spotted owl.
00:38:20
- Well, now of course, the big deal here is that, they're taking over, right?
00:38:22
They're just taking over, right?
00:38:23
Bard owls are our native here, aren't there?
00:38:25
They're only native to the Eastern United States.
00:38:28
- There's one species, Strixvaria, originally native to Eastern North America.
00:38:32
So they expanded westward in the 20th century due to human induced change, but the first sighting of a bardowl in Washington, for example, in Western Washington, wasn't until 1972.
00:38:43
- All right.
00:38:44
- So there was an Eastern bardowl, but not a Western bardowl.
00:38:47
They just, that's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like East Kavina or something like that.
00:38:52
- Yeah, 'cause how long would that be like to be considered a distinct sow species?
00:38:56
Like how long would that be separated?
00:38:58
- Well, now that genetics are in play, you know, a lot of those subspecies that were put in place before, don't really hold up now that we have genetics.
00:39:04
So people would find slight phenotypic variations, and I think mostly they were incentivized to dub something in new species, 'cause now they're a discoverer of something, you know?
00:39:14
So their name is permanently attached to something, it's good for a career, it's good for publication, et cetera.
00:39:20
And so, you know, at certain points, you had animals with wide distributions across North America that had slight phenotypic differences.
00:39:27
And it'd be, you know, designated, there's 20 subspecies, and then genetics comes along.
00:39:33
It's like, nope, they're all the same.
00:39:34
They're not subspecies, these minor differences.
00:39:37
So, who knows, you know, how long it would take for something to truly speciate between two distinct subspecies?
00:39:44
You know, I don't know how many generations, I guess it would depend on a number of factors, but yeah, a lot of the subspecies stuff is kind of hogwash as we're seeing.
00:39:54
- So what do you think about that?
00:39:55
Like, so there's too many barred owls, it's doing damage to the population of spotted owls, and probably some other like native stuff, but I know spotted owls are mentioned in this particular article,
00:40:05
because they're an endangered species.
00:40:09
But what do you think about that?
00:40:10
Like, is this the best solution?
00:40:11
What do you, and also, I'm scanning the article where I don't see it, maybe, are they hunting these things?
00:40:18
What are they doing?
00:40:19
How are they getting rid of these owls?
00:40:20
And is that the best way to do it?
00:40:22
- Shotguns.
00:40:23
- Shotguns, huh?
00:40:24
Like at night, or just during the day?
00:40:26
- Yeah, no, like we used to shoot 'em, 'cause when all that stuff was going on when I was logging, all that stuff was spotted out like 30 years ago, we'd shoot the barred owls, because we knew that they were displacing the spotted owls,
00:40:39
and we didn't want the spotted owl populations to go down, but I don't think it just didn't make a dent, really.
00:40:46
- Yeah, it says that nearly half a million barred owls constitutes less than 1% of the entire United States-based barred owl population.
00:40:56
And again, this would be over 30 years.
00:40:58
And so, you know, when you see those big numbers, you take, oh my gosh, but then in the context of things over that span of time, but it is funny to see like, oh, well, we've got to preserve these spotted owls because they're endangered.
00:41:09
It's like, well, why are they endangered?
00:41:11
Oh, they were endangered due to habitat loss from human activities.
00:41:14
You know, it's like where we are the stewards.
00:41:17
And so, yes, it is incumbent upon us.
00:41:19
It's our moral or ethical obligation to write that wrong, but I can see how it would be received controversially, because it looks like, you know, we're saying,
00:41:30
it's all the barred owl to blame, and they're going to pay the proverbial price for it.
00:41:34
So, speak, but it's much more nuanced and complicated than just like, yeah, we're going to take out half a million barred owls deal with it.
00:41:42
You know, it's not as black and white and as simple as that.
00:41:46
You know, because we're very good at bringing things back from the brink, and we did that with the grizzly bear, which we put it to the brink, and then we successfully brought it back.
00:41:55
You know, I remember there was a lot of, I think all these things are controversial because animals tug at our hearts, and they mean a lot to us, and they're amazing to see.
00:42:03
There was a lot of controversy when the grizzly was delisted from the endangered species list.
00:42:09
And, you know, people thought that this was a tragedy.
00:42:11
It's like, actually, no, that's the sign of victory that we brought it back from the brink, and that there's a healthy enough population now that we can call certain individuals to maintain the health of this population,
00:42:21
but that we brought it back to that point.
00:42:23
Now, again, we put it in that place, in the first place, which required our intervention, but, you know, there is a balance, and things are always shifting.
00:42:31
There's no set point as populations grow and expand and collapse due to a host of different factors, and we want to keep those things in balance, things like this have to occur.
00:42:42
So, I was always frustrated by, you know, some of the skeptical arguments against the Sasquatch rely on the concept biological ecological concept of carrying capacity, which is sort of,
00:42:52
you know, this might be controversial for me to say, but in my estimation, as a amateur auto-didact, you know, I don't have a degree, but what's carrying capacity?
00:43:03
Because the environment is always changing.
00:43:05
The resources are always changing.
00:43:07
So, you can't say, like, this environment could support X amount of this.
00:43:11
This is the carrying capacity of that land.
00:43:12
Well, yeah, maybe last year, but who's to say what'll happen in the next five years, or what it was like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 100 years ago, and so these things are always in flux.
00:43:22
Every part of that system is always moving and changing.
00:43:26
And so, I don't think this is necessarily, it shouldn't be as controversial as it is, as long as we're trusting that the biologists involved and the people who've made these decisions are doing so in,
00:43:38
you know, with the best of intentions and in good faith and with the best data available to them.
00:43:44
- So, the article mentions that Bart Owls have, I've basically made it with spotted owls, as well, banking hybrids of these two animals.
00:43:54
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
00:43:55
I know it dilutes the gene pool of the endangered species and I'm trying to tie this back to Sasquatches here.
00:44:03
Would it be odd if we discover Sasquatches and suddenly they start breeding with us voluntarily or otherwise?
00:44:10
And then there's big-foot human hybrids and they take over.
00:44:14
- You haven't been paying attention, Cliff, 'cause that's been happening for centuries.
00:44:18
(both laughing)
00:44:22
- See, Bobo is a shield for the human Sasquatch hybrid.
00:44:25
I think Bobo is part Sasquatch, twice of tall and imposing.
00:44:29
- Right, he's six foot four with boots on over seven feet when he wears his personality.
00:44:34
- 'Cause we get accused of being shields, you know, trying to hide the truth of the Sasquatch, but I think Bobo is like a, he's a paid shield for the Sasquatches.
00:44:43
(both laughing)
00:44:45
- Whatever you do, you're stink, whatever.
00:44:47
(both laughing)
00:44:49
- Yeah, I like those, that's a good payment I could get behind, some back straps, some back straps, I'd be all in.
00:44:55
You've got to make it count full of like moss and pine cones.
00:44:58
(both laughing)
00:45:00
Feathers.
00:45:01
- Yeah, feather and crappin' human trash.
00:45:04
- There you go.
00:45:05
Paulus River Rocks.
00:45:07
- Yeah, you know when I'm driving around on the road, I think it's roadkill, but it's actually this payment for Bobo.
00:45:12
(both laughing)
00:45:14
- Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo, we'll be right back after these messages.
00:45:20
(upbeat music)
00:45:23
- I mean, it would be interesting if that spotted out popular.
00:45:28
I guess if left unchecked, there would be a possibility that they could go extinct really due to absorption being absorbed, but are there offspring viable?
00:45:39
Because, you know, multiple species within a given genus can hybridize, but very often they don't produce viable offspring, and so it's not like they can absorb the whole population versus other species that are more closely related,
00:45:52
you know, within the same genus can produce viable offspring, and so that sort of creates like a feedback loop and one population absorbs the other one, and then neither of the originators are left, at least in a geographic area or just over time in general.
00:46:06
But I'm not certain, does it say whether or not the spotted out, barred out hybrids are viable?
00:46:11
- I didn't see it.
00:46:12
- I don't know.
00:46:13
It doesn't say in the article.
00:46:17
- Okay, I did a quick Google search, and it says barred out and spotted out hybrid offspring, often referred to as sparred owls, by the way, are indeed viable and capable of reproducing.
00:46:29
- Okay, so then, you know, this argument against like, well, we shouldn't intervene and wipe out the barred out, like, well, then eventually depending on the disparity of the populations,
00:46:39
because barred owls are not endangered, and clearly the spotted owls are, so they must be in much smaller numbers.
00:46:45
If left unchecked, certainly the possibility has to exist, that they would just absorb that population, and you wouldn't have any spotted owls left, you would just have the barred out hybrid sparred owls.
00:46:57
- I like that.
00:46:58
- That's a cool name.
00:46:59
- It is kind of cool.
00:47:00
I'm glad they did something fancy with it.
00:47:01
There's some talk that perhaps one of the contributing factors of Neanderthal extinction.
00:47:07
- Yeah.
00:47:08
- If it's extinction at all, it can just be absorbed.
00:47:10
You know, you can get into a real like philosophical conundrum, because I've had this debate around a camp fire many times when people say, well, you know, humans are so unnatural.
00:47:21
We do this and this and that.
00:47:22
And it's like, no, we're products of nature.
00:47:24
Everything we do is natural.
00:47:25
It might not be like what other animals do, but, you know, it is a product of nature.
00:47:30
It's, you know, what Dawkins would have called like the extended phenotype.
00:47:34
And of course, it has its consequences, but it's just the fact that we manipulate our environment, and it affects the environment is unnatural.
00:47:41
Well, then ponds that spring up as the results of beaver dams are unnatural, because beavers are manipulating their environment and they're constructing things.
00:47:48
And like, is it the case that like all this wouldn't happen without human intervention?
00:47:53
This isn't natural.
00:47:54
Like, well, who knows?
00:47:55
Like maybe Bardows would have eventually expanded westward or Spottedows might have expanded eastward and they still would have blended and absorbed into each other.
00:48:04
Who knows?
00:48:05
But I do think the argument that, well, human shouldn't intervene here, because the Bardows shouldn't pay the price for the human destruction that led to the endangerment of the Spottedow.
00:48:16
It looks like they're heading down that extinction vortex anyway, which is why we're intervening.
00:48:21
So again, it's super complicated.
00:48:23
It's not as easy as like, is this right or is it wrong?
00:48:26
Well, it depends.
00:48:27
And it's probably both on multiple levels, and what's the end goal?
00:48:31
Who are we trying to protect and why?
00:48:33
We, you know, which of these two species, how do they contribute to the overall health of the environment?
00:48:38
Has that been assessed?
00:48:40
Is it absolutely necessary to maintain the population of the Spottedow for their, you know, ecological niche in that particular ecosystem?
00:48:48
Who knows?
00:48:49
Maybe we can hybrid, hybridize Bardowls and human hunters to kind of like double agents amongst them, you know, and assassinate them from the inside.
00:48:59
- Moth man.
00:49:00
- Moth man.
00:49:01
There you go.
00:49:02
(laughing)
00:49:03
- It's, it's done happen, Cliff, called Moth man.
00:49:05
- I hadn't even thought of that.
00:49:07
Of course, you know, these flying humanoids, clearly, they had a dirty hair.
00:49:10
- Only members got to hear, 'cause it was in the members only episode with Lyle, but Bobo did tell us these.
00:49:15
I hate both, man.
00:49:16
- I do, do those things suck.
00:49:20
- Just get one of those big bug sappers, you know, outside your house.
00:49:24
I had to do that for Hummingbirds, man.
00:49:27
Got out of control here.
00:49:28
- Really?
00:49:29
- Oh, are you okay?
00:49:30
- No, you got it.
00:49:31
- No, I'm just kidding.
00:49:32
Of course I'm kidding.
00:49:33
(laughing)
00:49:35
Although I will tell you the Hummingbirds that got out of control here.
00:49:37
I'm not allowed to put feeders up anymore.
00:49:39
That's not, that's not a lie.
00:49:40
That's not a joke.
00:49:41
Melissa got real mad at 'em because they're loud and aggressive and they fight all the time at stress throughout.
00:49:46
So instead of having cute little birds around, it was like this swarm blackening out the sun above us, you know, of these like angry, you know, giant mosquito birds, you know,
00:49:57
trying to jousting with each other in midair.
00:50:00
- You gotta wonder if this would lead to more Sasquatch sightings.
00:50:04
If you have that many people who's professional obligation, it is to be out in the Pacific Northwest at night in the forest.
00:50:11
- Oh, it had to.
00:50:12
It would have to.
00:50:13
- It would have to.
00:50:14
- It would have to.
00:50:15
- It would have to be the Squatch's job ever.
00:50:16
- But they'd also be the last people to report it because they'd be, you know, on the payroll for U.S.
00:50:20
Fish and Wildlife.
00:50:21
And so it's probably like, yeah, my job might be at risk.
00:50:25
If I claimed I saw a seven and a half foot tall, you know, eight, you know, it's probably the last population of people that, you know, if they actually had encounters,
00:50:36
we wouldn't expect to hear much about it probably.
00:50:39
But I didn't think that was interesting.
00:50:40
That was one, you've seen in Bobo.
00:50:42
And so it was interesting to see that kind of debate.
00:50:46
And again, we've, there's so many downstream consequences of things like this that, you know, everything, every intervention has its unintended consequences.
00:50:56
And I've said it, I know I've said it on the Nimbus episodes a lot, but to the main show listeners, if you wanna read a book that I think is directly useful as at least a thought experiment for the Sasquatch,
00:51:07
but it's a factual book.
00:51:08
It's a nonfiction, but re-ghost grizzlies about the potential survival of grizzly bears in Southern Colorado.
00:51:15
It's an amazing book.
00:51:16
And, you know, all the consequences of the effort to eradicate grizzlies from Colorado and other areas and how they might have survived.
00:51:25
And it seems like they probably did survive.
00:51:27
And then the efforts that are underway to sort of brush it under the rug because of the threats that it poses to the state's economy.
00:51:33
It's a really enlightening and insightful book.
00:51:38
- Yeah, I did, in fact, read that on your recommendation and I very much enjoyed it.
00:51:41
- It's so good.
00:51:43
- All right, well, you know, we have time for one more article that we can discuss here before we have to go on to other things here.
00:51:49
So why don't we do the ape one?
00:51:51
This is published on medium.com.
00:51:53
And this is, again, all over the news.
00:51:55
I read several different versions of this particular story.
00:51:59
And the title of this is Why Apes Don't Ask.
00:52:03
And the gist is that, you know, apes are fantastic.
00:52:06
They're absolutely astonishing animals.
00:52:09
You know, they're the most interesting mirror we can hold up to ourselves in many, many different ways because we are apes.
00:52:14
We are in that general family, you know?
00:52:17
But one of the big differences, one of the big differences between all the other ape species, despite the fact that we can have really rudimentary conversations with them, we can understand how they're feeling a lot of times.
00:52:29
But one of the interesting differences, though there are several, is that even though we can communicate with apes to some degree,
00:52:40
never once has any ape asked one of their caretakers a question.
00:52:47
They may ask four things.
00:52:49
They may ask, you know, can you do this?
00:52:52
But they don't ask about something a little bit more esoteric, like say, the weather, or where did you get that shoe, or something like that.
00:53:01
They just don't ask questions.
00:53:03
And there's probably a lot of reasons for that.
00:53:05
And I think it has to do with something that we can see it in our own development.
00:53:10
You can see this in infants, for example, is that they don't possess something that is referred to as theory of mind, which is an understanding that other people can have thoughts and things,
00:53:21
and thoughts and ideas that they personally don't have.
00:53:25
- It's 'cause they don't have a cerebral cortex, right?
00:53:28
Like a really small one.
00:53:30
- I don't know.
00:53:31
- I heard a story once, and it's vivid in my mind, but I don't remember the source, so it might be apocryphal.
00:53:37
So, you know, I'll have to look this up, but I do remember hearing that some of the apes that could speak sign language, and it might have been cocoa, would lie to certain trainers about having been neglected,
00:53:51
or like, for example, like they would have been fed, and then the next trainer would come in, and then the ape would communicate like, you know, I'm hungry, I haven't been fed yet.
00:54:00
Which suggests some degree of theory of mind, because it's sort of like, if I can make you think something that's not true, I'll get what I want.
00:54:08
So I need you to believe, 'cause you, I'm aware that you're unaware of whether or not I've been fed.
00:54:14
And so if I can make you believe that I haven't been, I'll get twice as much food this morning, something of that nature.
00:54:20
So there are other manifestations.
00:54:22
Now again, I recall hearing that story very vividly, but I don't recall the source.
00:54:26
So I could be wrong about that.
00:54:28
It might just be one of those apocryphal stories, but I'm pretty sure that there are other examples of like that level of abstraction that I do think would apply to theory of mind that would suggest that they do have some degree of that,
00:54:40
but it's not coming in the form of like questions, obviously.
00:54:43
- You know what's funny is how much rumors are about what Michael and Coco were able to say and like asking about like the existence of God and afterlife and there's a lot of that yet.
00:54:54
Like I read that numerous times.
00:54:55
I used to talk it like he was a, you know, I'd quote, like there was a fact and I thought like, no, that's all BS.
00:55:02
- Yeah, one of the other stories I remember specifically about Coco was that she had apparently gotten upset with a person and called them like a green turd.
00:55:12
And they were marveling at it because they were like, we've never taught her insults or to associate, you know, defecation, feces as an insult, like to compare a person or a thing or something to feces as a,
00:55:25
as a, like an anger response or being upset.
00:55:30
And so little things like that, you know, are these little glimpses of like, oh, maybe there is something more abstract happening and occurring and like not just from like direct teaching or learning.
00:55:41
- Well, you know, if that story you told is in fact true, Matt, and you acknowledge that you don't even know if that it is, but if that is true, that is coming from a perspective of one of these apes knowing something that their human doesn't know.
00:55:55
Maybe that's a one way street if that's true.
00:55:58
Like it's a lot easier to probably wrap your head around.
00:56:03
I know something you don't know, but I think it's a different leap to suggest that you know something I don't know.
00:56:11
Because I see difficulty with that even in humans sometimes.
00:56:15
- Certainly.
00:56:15
I see what you mean there, absolutely.
00:56:17
- Yeah, because if you think you're the center of everything as many people and probably some apes do, then that it seems like that's a much easier thing to, to, you know, to, like I said,
00:56:27
for wrapped your head around.
00:56:29
I see this with a lot with people who know a lot about something.
00:56:31
Sometimes they know so much about something that they can't believe that somebody else might know something they don't, especially if they've been particularly well trained in it, for example.
00:56:39
Certainly, seeing that a lot.
00:56:42
So with Sasquatches, what does that mean to them?
00:56:45
What does that mean?
00:56:46
And I think it has everything to do with Sasquatches.
00:56:49
And I've been saying this kind of for a long time that like in the example I use is that Sasquatches are literally hiding from us in the dark.
00:56:57
So I take this as meaning they don't understand that we see the world differently than them.
00:57:04
You know, they don't, they can't wrap their heads around that we don't see in the dark.
00:57:09
Basically, despite the evidence that they probably observe, you know, us carrying flashlights and after the shine lights on things, and it's probably very, very bewildering for them.
00:57:16
It's kind of like in the same way.
00:57:17
And I say use this as a similar example that when I was like 10 years old and I was told that dogs don't see in color, I'd say, well, how do they know?
00:57:27
You know, that's crazy.
00:57:28
Like, because I could only be inside my own experience and I couldn't get outside my own head at that, that young age.
00:57:35
I believed it, but I didn't really understand it.
00:57:38
And of course, later on in life, asking questions, which is what apes don't do about why this would be true.
00:57:45
I found that they, you know, you can actually look in the back of their eyes and you can see the kind of cells they have, rods and cones.
00:57:50
One doesn't see color, the other one sees black and white.
00:57:54
And the back of a dog's retina is dominated by the kind that are black and white.
00:57:57
They do have a little bit of color vision in the blue and green area, it turns out.
00:58:01
But they're dominated by this other kind of retinal cell.
00:58:06
So that's how we know to answer my tenure-old self.
00:58:09
But Sasquatches are hiding from us in the dark.
00:58:12
And I think that right there is some evidence as shaky as it is that Sasquatches probably suffer from the same phenomenon that they cannot really wrap their heads around something that is not in their own experience.
00:58:23
- Yeah, I can't see how they would ever posit that we see the world differently than they do.
00:58:29
It seems like they assume that we see as well at night as they do.
00:58:33
How could there be any other way, you know?
00:58:35
- I remember talking about that with my nameaker, 15, 20 years ago about how when they were seen on, you know, not great footage.
00:58:45
I mean, it wasn't footage, it was just before they were recording.
00:58:47
But like on thermal or night vision scopes, the way they run around like they were going to get shot out at any second, like we could see, like they thought we could see them,
00:58:58
you know?
00:58:58
And that's why they were like that.
00:59:00
Like how they act all, you know, like someone in a battle zone, like, you know, keeping low and moving fast, not skylighting themselves and that sort of stuff.
00:59:11
- But as humans, we can, we can take a pretty good guess that they can see moderately well at night to some degree, to some degree, maybe, you know?
00:59:18
And we can kind of figure that out by observing behaviors and taking guesses at things, but they don't seem to be able to do that so much.
00:59:25
Kind of goes back to the, are they people?
00:59:27
Nah, they're not people.
00:59:28
They're Sasquatches or something else.
00:59:30
- So if you do encounter a Sasquatch, you don't get to see it to it.
00:59:33
Question.
00:59:34
(laughing)
00:59:36
All right, is that it then?
00:59:37
- I think that's it for this episode 'cause we've got a good members episode cooking.
00:59:43
A lot of great questions from the members and some stuff.
00:59:45
And so folks, if you wanna sign up and be a member the link is in the show notes and you also get episodes at free.
00:59:51
And then now we do have a yearly discount.
00:59:54
So if you do the annual membership, you're gonna save 10%, which is pretty great saving.
00:59:58
So head on over to the link in the show notes and see what all the fuss is about.
01:00:03
Okay, then Bobo, why don't you get us out of here, man?
01:00:05
- All right, okay folks, that's the episode of Bigfoot Beyond with Cliff and Bobo and this time Matt Prudet joining us.
01:00:13
That's how he's a treat.
01:00:14
We get through it all the time for the Patreon members.
01:00:18
When we do an extra episode of a week, we got Matt on there all the time.
01:00:20
So if you enjoyed this style with having Matt on there, sign up for the Patreon.
01:00:25
Join us over there, we have a great time.
01:00:28
All right, thanks again, folks.
01:00:29
And until next week, y'all keep it swatchy.
01:00:31
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01:00:40
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01:01:20
fantastic episode, great topics and discussion, Matt P is such a knowledgeable guy with great approach to to the subject of bigfoot