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Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and BoboEp. 297 - Fossil Footprints, Savage Squirrels, & Decorative Drones!
Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and BoboEp. 297 - Fossil Footprints, Savage Squirrels, & Decorative Drones!
Ep. 297 - Fossil Footprints, Savage Squirrels, & Decorative Drones!
Update: 2025-01-13
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Description
Cliff Barackman, James "Bobo" Fay, and Matt Pruitt explore a range of recent news items with 'squatchy relevance! Topics include: Fossil Footprints, Carnivorous Squirrels, Chimpanzee Behavior, Ape Origins, and Thom Powell's Statement!
Read the NAWAC's Ouachita Project Monograph HERE.
Get Mike Mayes' "Valley of the Apes" HERE.
Get Thom Powell's "Planet Strange" HERE.
Get Boris Porshnev's "Soviet Sasquatch" HERE.
Get David Begun's "The Real Planet of the Apes" HERE.
Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast
Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/
Read the NAWAC's Ouachita Project Monograph HERE.
Get Mike Mayes' "Valley of the Apes" HERE.
Get Thom Powell's "Planet Strange" HERE.
Get Boris Porshnev's "Soviet Sasquatch" HERE.
Get David Begun's "The Real Planet of the Apes" HERE.
Sign up for our weekly bonus podcast "Beyond Bigfoot & Beyond" and ad-free episodes here: https://www.patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast
Get official "Bigfoot & Beyond with Cliff & Bobo" merchandise here: https://sasquatchprints.com/bigfoot-and-beyond-merch/
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Transcript
00:00:00
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:00:02
Big foot and beyond with cliff and bobo.
00:00:08
These guys are your favorites.
00:00:10
So like, share, subscribe, and rate it.
00:00:13
Five stones.
00:00:14
Big foot and beyond.
00:00:18
Greatest to know.
00:00:19
Best.
00:00:20
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:00:23
And now your hosts.
00:00:28
Cliff Berkman and James Boobofay.
00:00:31
Hello, bobo.
00:00:31
What's going on, man?
00:00:33
How much is up, Cliff?
00:00:34
Nothing, man.
00:00:35
Just live in life, doing the thing.
00:00:36
You know, doing the museum deal.
00:00:37
Working out all the weekends now until we get a-- we're going to put feedlers out for new employee.
00:00:42
Anybody listening wants to apply to the North American Bigfoot Center to be a cashier?
00:00:46
Feel free.
00:00:47
It's a weekend gig.
00:00:48
The pay is low, but the benefits are high.
00:00:50
And I don't mean like health or anything like that.
00:00:53
Health or retirement.
00:00:54
I mean, squash benefits.
00:00:56
Lots and lots of stuff going on there all the time.
00:00:58
You're going to learn a lot.
00:00:59
But we're mostly looking for a weekend coverage at this point.
00:01:03
So I am there every weekend.
00:01:04
Anybody wants to come in and say hello to me and tell me how great the podcast is?
00:01:08
Feel free.
00:01:09
Do it on a Saturday or Sunday.
00:01:10
Caught Bigfoot calls and you charge him to come there and do that stuff.
00:01:14
Right, we don't pay you.
00:01:15
You pay us.
00:01:16
You give us your time.
00:01:17
You get to work the cashier at a Bigfoot museum.
00:01:20
You know, that reminded me of you saying this.
00:01:24
I lurk on a few online forums and I saw one.
00:01:27
There was a thread that was-- I met Cliff from Finding Bigfoot.
00:01:30
And the poster said, my wife and I were out in Sandy, Oregon today.
00:01:32
And saw a unique museum next to a pub.
00:01:34
I think it was called the North American Bigfoot Museum or Close, walked in, paid the fee.
00:01:39
We got to talking to the guy behind the counter and damn.
00:01:41
This guy was a Bigfoot genius.
00:01:43
I asked why in the hell he wasn't hosting a TV show.
00:01:45
He looked at me, smiled and said, I did for like eight years.
00:01:48
My jaw hit the floor.
00:01:50
Super nice guy.
00:01:51
And I can't say enough nice things.
00:01:52
If you're out that way, check it out.
00:01:54
Cool.
00:01:55
Later in the thread, someone says, he has a podcast with Bobo called Bigfoot and Beyond.
00:01:59
It's actually my favorite Bigfoot podcast.
00:02:02
And another person-- or the original poster replied and said, listen to my first episode on the way home.
00:02:07
It was hooked for an hour.
00:02:09
Another person replied and said, Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
00:02:14
And then another person replied and said, these guys are your favorites.
00:02:17
And another person said, if you like, share, subscribe, and rate it, five stars.
00:02:23
The final reply says, I'm so glad that we've got pigeons in here.
00:02:27
That's great.
00:02:30
That's really funny.
00:02:32
That warmed the heart for sure.
00:02:34
That's great.
00:02:37
And they're probably listening now.
00:02:38
So if you did that, that's awesome.
00:02:40
I love it.
00:02:40
I love it.
00:02:41
I love leaving the pigeons continue to leave Easter eggs all over the place.
00:02:46
What would other museum news?
00:02:47
Bobo, are you sure you're not coming up for the gig here, Matt Prut speaking gig?
00:02:51
Because we sold out of Matt Prut tickets in less than one day, like seven hours after I put them up, all of the in-person tickets were sold.
00:03:01
Now mind you, I only put them out there for museum members.
00:03:04
And then don't give me wrong podcast members.
00:03:06
I love you, too.
00:03:07
But this is a museum event.
00:03:09
And museum is hosting it.
00:03:10
And we're doing a thing at the museum.
00:03:12
It's a museum event.
00:03:13
So I put it out to the museum members first.
00:03:15
They grabbed every single ticket for in-person stuff with Matt Prut.
00:03:21
Bobo, I would encourage you to consider coming up.
00:03:23
I know that you have schedule obligations and stuff like that.
00:03:25
But something goes sideways.
00:03:28
We're up there with open arms.
00:03:29
So come on up.
00:03:30
Look, before you answer that, Bobo, let's not-- I have no delusions of grandeur here.
00:03:34
I think the reason those sold so quickly is because when we talked about it, Bobo said multiple times that he might be there.
00:03:42
I think that's probably-- that's a much more likely reason that people want to be there than that I'm going to be there.
00:03:48
I think people are like, oh, Bobo might be there.
00:03:50
And that's why they're-- so if Bobo now says, I'm definitely not going, then maybe a lot of people ask for refunds.
00:03:57
No, no.
00:04:00
If you can, it would be great to see you.
00:04:02
Thanks.
00:04:03
I mean, Prut sold over 2,000 books.
00:04:05
I mean, there's a lot of people who want to see Prut.
00:04:07
Whether you make it or not, Bobo, anybody who does show up is going to see a lot of people that they have heard and read about it.
00:04:12
How can I tell you what names I have verified are coming?
00:04:15
But there are some big foot royalties showing up.
00:04:17
So-- and probably a good handful of them.
00:04:21
So Matt Prut, maybe on the pedestal that evening, but there's a lot of people gathered around looking up at them.
00:04:26
So I think we should have a life-size cardboard cut out of Bobo and just put an iPad where the face is and have Bobo live stream.
00:04:33
And we'll just walk that around with us.
00:04:35
My god, why don't I have a life-size cut out of Bobo in the museum?
00:04:39
What have I done with my life to not have that?
00:04:41
Just put an iPad on it.
00:04:42
And so he can FaceTime with his face there.
00:04:45
So it's like you can walk up and talk to Bobo in person.
00:04:49
Oh, wow.
00:04:50
Matt, you might know this.
00:04:51
Are there AI that can simulate voices?
00:04:53
There probably are, right?
00:04:54
Yeah, of course.
00:04:55
There are.
00:04:56
Let's get one and make Bobo say ridiculous things.
00:04:58
I don't think you could properly train a large language model on Bobo.
00:05:02
I think Bobo's too vast to be captured by zeros or ones.
00:05:06
Thank you, Prut.
00:05:08
How do you capture growls and zeros and ones?
00:05:10
Stomach growls.
00:05:12
That's not what I was sticking up, but that's funnier.
00:05:18
So this week is a topical episode where we kind of go through in our regular lives and keep up on the news in various ways.
00:05:26
Any time we see an article that Bobo Matt and I just-- we see an article that may pertain to something to do with Bigfoot that we think is interesting.
00:05:33
We send it in and Matt Prut compiles all of these.
00:05:36
And once every month or two or three or Blumoon or whatever, we get together and we talk about the articles and kind of share them where-- and our thoughts on them, why they're important and what we can learn from them or anything like that.
00:05:48
So we've got a handful of them tied up today.
00:05:51
So let's see what we can do with them.
00:05:53
Bobo, would you like to choose one or Matt?
00:05:54
Would you like to choose one to start with?
00:05:56
Oh, Matt, take the others.
00:05:58
I think it'd be good to start with the 1.5 million-year-old fossilized footprint fine because a lot of our listeners sent that one in as well.
00:06:06
So you had sent it in as soon as it posted online because it's obviously right up your alley and the alley of the discussions this podcast.
00:06:13
But I think a lot of listeners had the same idea because multiple people sent this in.
00:06:18
That was a particularly interesting one to me.
00:06:20
I really, really liked it because I'm not only a footprint guy.
00:06:24
I'm a paleoanthropology guy.
00:06:26
I really, really like that sort of thing.
00:06:28
And of course, the lay of Toley footprints are the most widely-known footprints, fossilized footprints of hominins.
00:06:36
They, Dr.
00:06:37
Meldrum wrote an article on those pointing out the evidence for mid-foot flexibility and all that sort of stuff.
00:06:43
And then, so when any other footprints, fossilized footprint stuff show up, I'm always looking at them.
00:06:48
I'm always trying to find pictures of the footprints to see, do they show evidence of mid-tarsal flexibility?
00:06:55
And this one, this was such an interesting article to me because not only were fossilized hominins and footprints found, but two different species were found in the same fossilized riverbed or lakebed or whatever it was,
00:07:11
siltbed, anyway.
00:07:12
Two different species of hominins, of human ancestors, were found living at the same time and same place.
00:07:20
In fact, the scientists in this particular find are pretty sure that these footprints were not only found at the same place, but basically laid down within a few hours to a few days apart.
00:07:33
And that is based on the analysis of the silt, and it's not silt, it's rock now, but it was silt.
00:07:40
But by looking at the rock, they can learn a lot about the silt.
00:07:43
The silt would have been washed over one another, but apparently they stepped in such a way, maybe on top of each other or so close from other, that the silt was actually, if it had been left,
00:07:54
say, a month, almost certainly some silt would have washed in and washed a lot of these away, that was not the case in these.
00:08:00
So we have very strong evidence that two different species walk through this area, easily within a few days of one another.
00:08:10
Now, a few days might be a week or something, depending on whether conditions back then what was going on.
00:08:13
We know almost nothing about all this, but it is super, super interesting to me, at least.
00:08:20
The two species, if you're wondering about it, were homorectus and a paranthropus, which got my eyebrows up pretty quick there, because I like the idea of sask watch as possibly being a paranthropus of some sort.
00:08:36
And so whenever something like that pops up, I might pay extra close attention.
00:08:41
But homorectus and paranthropus, boizii, specifically, by the way, this is paranthropus, boizii.
00:08:47
These two species are pretty well known to be some of the most successful hominin species ever, basically, outside of humans,
00:08:58
especially during the Pleistocene epic, the era there.
00:09:02
Both of these species were very widely dispersed, particularly homorectus.
00:09:06
I mean, homorectus was found all the way from Indonesia to Africa.
00:09:12
So they were extraordinarily successful.
00:09:16
Paranthropus, boizii has only been found in Africa so far, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they kind of wandered outside there.
00:09:24
I wouldn't expect an archaic hominin to color within the lines of the speak.
00:09:28
But also, something of note in this article, as well, is that, you know, for the most part, most evidence of any of these extinct species come from bones.
00:09:38
You know, when bones can kind of move around, like if an animal rocks away and there's a pile of bones, their rain can come and wash them away.
00:09:45
Scavengers can move them before or after the meat is rotten away.
00:09:49
So footprints are one of the only ways to actually study any level of behavior that you can actually be sure of in a way, because fossilized bones before they were fossilized,
00:10:02
or even after it could wash away and move, probably pretty good distances.
00:10:06
But footprints don't do that.
00:10:07
Footprints stay where they were put.
00:10:10
So I guess those are the big three takeaways for me after this one.
00:10:13
Is that two hominin species lived at the same time and same place, just like today.
00:10:18
Human beings are alive here and Sasquatches are alive here, and probably some other critters over there in Asia and Africa and Australia and stuff.
00:10:25
So humans are not the only biped standing, so to speak.
00:10:31
That has never been the case, I would argue.
00:10:35
And second of all, these things were found within a few hours and one another.
00:10:39
And it gives us a little bit of insight into their behavior and how they walk as well.
00:10:43
So pretty cool stuff, man.
00:10:45
Pretty cool stuff with this article.
00:10:46
I was excited about it.
00:10:48
Absolutely.
00:10:49
I think given this location there at Lake Tercana, which is sort of it's Eastern Africa, but it's sort of northeastern, you know, the fossil record for Peranthropus ends there around 1.4 million years ago.
00:11:00
And so the younger fossils, the ones that are more recent to us in time, like 0.6 million years ago, roughly, are more southerly, like South Africa, et cetera.
00:11:11
So this was kind of at the tail end of at least their represented tenure in the fossil record in Eastern Africa.
00:11:18
It at least poses some interesting questions, like maybe the emergence of something like Homo erectus on the scene created enough competitive pressure, some sort of competition for resources that drove them out of the Eric.
00:11:30
That's again, right at the tail end of when we see their fossil record dry up and not part of Africa, which is really interesting.
00:11:36
You got to wonder how much Homo erectus and Peranthropus would have even competed, though.
00:11:41
What level competition?
00:11:42
Because Homo erectus, we don't know if they were closed, we don't know if they were hair covered or any of those sort of things.
00:11:47
So we do know they use fire.
00:11:49
And if they're using fire, that means they're probably using different food sources.
00:11:54
Cooking meat, for example, and the tool use is probably vastly different as well.
00:11:59
There's some evidence of Peranthropus probably used tools, but there's absolute evidence that Homo erectus did.
00:12:04
So you got to wonder what those different adaptations that they picked up along the way.
00:12:08
How much overlap there was?
00:12:11
How much competition for various resources?
00:12:13
There had to be some, of course, because there's even competition today between Homo sapiens and saskwatches, for like deer, for example.
00:12:22
The species that humans like to hunt, they're the same species as saskwatches like the, you know?
00:12:28
So you got to figure there's probably some.
00:12:30
But I think that given the adaptations of the jaw and the teeth and the chewing apparatus and Peranthropus, they were probably going after largely different food items with some overlap,
00:12:43
I guess.
00:12:43
Oh, so that, I would expect that there'd be some degree of overlap.
00:12:46
I just think it's interesting that you have this co-occurrence that you can date in time that immediately precedes the sort of end of their fossil record in that area.
00:12:55
Or the end of the Peranthropine fossil record in that area.
00:12:58
So it doesn't mean necessarily that they're correlated, but I think it at least poses a question.
00:13:04
It's interesting and super cool.
00:13:06
I think it's cool that they use 3D scanning and, you know, reproducing things in 3D models as well.
00:13:11
That technology, which we're using on a smaller scale, you know, with our phones that you would term me on a scantiverse as an app to be used in the field.
00:13:20
And so I know 3D scanning's been used in fossil sites and to study taphonomy for quite a long time.
00:13:26
And there were 3D scans, even if the late Holy site, that some of those papers include that stuff.
00:13:32
But it's still cool to see that being used in the fact that us squatchers are using a smaller scale of that to some degree too.
00:13:39
Yeah.
00:13:40
You know, looking at the photographs that accompanied this article as well, these photographs of some of the prints in the ground, I love 'em because obviously I'm kind of a footprint kind of guy, right?
00:13:51
But a lot of these, if I saw a Sasquatch cast like this, maybe by now I'd be much more open to them.
00:13:58
But, you know, 10 years ago, I would have said, "Ah, it doesn't look right to me.
00:14:00
I think we'd fake."
00:14:01
And of course, if you threw it out there to, you know, a skeptic or someone who was on the fence about it, they wouldn't think that these footprints were real.
00:14:08
These footprints, and I'm looking at, I can, like for some of these, I can go through the data set and find three or four, five footprint casts that strongly resemble these.
00:14:22
But there's no one's questioning that these have been hoaxed.
00:14:25
You know, it'd be cool if you could put a big foot, like some prints and pressions in, like mixed in, like, you know, like you don't have an inside job,
00:14:35
but have like a real anthropologist present it to people saying, like, "Look at these footprints we found, this other hominid.
00:14:42
And you know, as every one of those experts would be like, 'Oh, yeah, you can see this lines up with that.' Like this is obviously like a bigger version as it evolved more, you know, like that.
00:14:50
If they look at the tracks from that point of view, they'd find so much similarities."
00:14:54
Yeah, it's a very interesting stuff.
00:14:57
You know, in a lot of these footprint, like, this, one of the similarities, Bobo, that I'm seeing in this photograph here is that the, the heel seems almost too narrow in some of these,
00:15:07
thus giving it kind of a fan shape.
00:15:10
When you look at the front part of the foot, the ball and the toes, and a lot of these, the toes are quite well split and it's very triangular, very triangular, kind of like the fan shape.
00:15:21
I talk about the fan shape Sasquatch footprint cast a lot.
00:15:24
The stuff from, like, L'Original Hamilton or some of the stuff from Jimmy Huchin, biologist, some of the Freeman stuff looks like that, very fan shaped.
00:15:33
These have the same signature, I suppose, very, very interesting stuff and it's always great to compare.
00:15:41
A lot of these just show four toes as well, which is another very common thing with Sasquatch footprints.
00:15:46
A lot of footprints don't have all five toes, showing in them and a lot of big foot researchers go the extra mile and think that the animal itself only has four toes.
00:15:58
That's nonsense.
00:15:59
Sasquatches have five toes and they say, "Well, what about an accent or cutting it off?"
00:16:03
Yeah, maybe, but it's probably more likely that the Sasquatch has a very flexible foot as we are pretty sure they do and the toes isn't impressed.
00:16:13
That must be the case with these things too.
00:16:15
Of course, these are very, very old footprints, too, anything could have happened.
00:16:17
A lot of these, I'm looking at a composite photograph of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 footprints right here and 1, 2, 3 of them show all five toes,
00:16:30
3.
00:16:31
That's it.
00:16:32
You don't have three or four toes visible because of the substrate, because of the way their feet probably interact with the ground and of course, because of the age as well, but I think the big foot community probably needs to let go of this idea that four-toed prints mean a four-toed animal.
00:16:46
It's not true.
00:16:49
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo, we'll be right back after these messages.
00:17:00
I think Bobo had a great point about putting evidence in front of people, independent of context.
00:17:06
It reminded me, first of all, you know, Roderick Sprig wrote a bit about those, the carved stone heads found in the Columbia River.
00:17:13
And so, yeah, when Sprig was trying to get analyses from some zoologists about it, he sent it around to a number of people for their opinions.
00:17:23
And what he wrote about it was, quote, he said, "Some zoologists describe the carvings as looking, quote, "extremely monkey or ape-like," asking, where are they from?
00:17:32
When the location was indicated, the reaction from these zoologists was either one of anger or of a concerted effort to erase their former comments.
00:17:39
And so, I always thought that was a fairly interesting take, and it reminded me, too, of, you know, someone that I knew that recorded what might have been red wolf vocalizations in the interior highlands,
00:17:52
you know, like the washital range, where there used to be red wolves historically, but now they're fairly restricted to Eastern North Carolina.
00:18:00
And so, this person sent it around, and one red wolf biologist was like, "Oh, those sound really, those sound really compelling, yeah, where'd you get that?"
00:18:08
And he told them, and they said, "Oh, no, well, then it can't be because there are no red wolves there."
00:18:13
And it goes back to that circular logic of like, "Well, what would it take to convince you that there might be red wolves there?"
00:18:18
"Oh, well, I'd need to have some kind of evidence."
00:18:20
Well, what about this?
00:18:21
Is this evidence?
00:18:22
No, no, that can't be because they're not there.
00:18:26
So it would be interesting, you know, if you could put Sasquatch tracks, regardless of scale, because obviously if someone sees something 16, 17 inches long, they're immediately probably going to be circumspect.
00:18:38
But if you had, let's say, 3D scans and just said, "Hey, take a look at this.
00:18:42
What do you think?"
00:18:43
You know, you wouldn't want to deceive them and say they were found in a fossil lake bed in Africa or something like that, but it would be interesting because it is the case that as soon as they hear North America, like, "Oh, well, that can't be because there's no such thing."
00:18:54
Yeah, it reminds me that big foods are not real because they cannot be real, right?
00:18:58
Simple as that.
00:18:59
That's all the argument you need.
00:19:00
You're not doing well enough, you know?
00:19:02
Yeah, I'm loving these footprints, man.
00:19:04
Looking at these photographs, everybody should check these out.
00:19:06
I always put all the articles, links to the articles in the show notes.
00:19:10
So people, if you open up the episode description, you will see the links to each of these articles that we're discussing.
00:19:15
Yeah, it might be fun for -- I still haven't put my presentation together for Squatch Fest at the end of the month.
00:19:22
I'm kind of him and Han, which direction to go, so I've got a couple of fun things I'd like to talk about, but an hour of presentation doesn't give you much to talk about at the end of the day.
00:19:30
It might be kind of fun to put a couple of these up there and put comparative Sasquatch footprint cast next to them that strongly resemble them or that would be very cool, you know, be interesting.
00:19:40
And of course, they wouldn't strongly resemble the homo erectus ones.
00:19:44
So you have a couple of homo erectus footprint finds already.
00:19:48
To my knowledge, this is the first Peranthropus footprint find.
00:19:50
I mean, maybe there's others, but -- well, I know there was that other one that was in the last year, maybe about a year ago, the Leontoli tracks, you know, not the most famous one,
00:20:00
but there's another -- two or three other sites, I think, of Leontoli tracks, at least.
00:20:05
And they went back and uncovered them.
00:20:06
I think we did it for a topical episode, I remember.
00:20:08
Those may or may not be Peranthropists, so it'd be interesting.
00:20:12
You know, with homo erectus and Peranthropus being two of the most successful species, or, you know, in this case, genus, it makes me wonder, like, maybe those are the best contenders for longevity,
00:20:26
as well.
00:20:26
Like, maybe we should be looking at some of these almostes and whatnot in that part of the world in East from Europe, and keeping homo erectus in mind for possible contenders.
00:20:38
They were -- the homo erectus was, by far, the most successful hominid.
00:20:44
They were around for a long time.
00:20:47
They had a massive span, as well.
00:20:49
One of the most interesting things, because obviously, when you're positing an ancestral candidate for the North American Sasquatch, coming over Beringia is the most likely route.
00:20:59
So they must have come from Asia, even if they originated outside of Asia, let's say.
00:21:03
But at least, they most likely came from Asia, and it seems like a long distance to people, and so people tend to think of those distances being covered in migrations.
00:21:13
As if, you know, like, a whole population gets up and marches from one place to the other over some massive distance, but there's some rough math that's been done.
00:21:23
Roughly speaking, if you look at the fossils of homo erectus in Africa and their emergence into Asia, which is a very southeastern Asia, because, you know, they were all the way into Java and other parts of Indonesia and all over Southeast Asia,
00:21:38
seems like this massive movement.
00:21:40
So people would posit, like, oh, they somehow migrated.
00:21:43
But actually, if you do the math to account for that movement, they only needed to move roughly between five and ten miles once every generation.
00:21:52
Pretty wild.
00:21:53
So it wasn't like they were marching across these landscapes and epic vistas on this epic quest to get across the world.
00:22:01
It's like they were just slowly expanding their populations, you know, bit by bit to account for the span of time from Africa to Southeast Asia.
00:22:09
Yeah, there's chillin' and staying put, having babies and dispersin', you know?
00:22:14
I think another article, Bobo, had brought up before it was one of Bobo's that he submitted was pretty interesting.
00:22:20
If you wanted to go to one of Bobo's next, it was about the carnivorous squirrels.
00:22:23
Oh, yeah, I love it.
00:22:24
I love it.
00:22:25
Bobo, you want to kick that one off for us?
00:22:28
Yeah.
00:22:29
The reason I brought this up, okay, it's about in the Bay Area, East Bay Area of California behind Oakland up in that area.
00:22:38
They thought that squirrels were vegetarian, but they discovered these ones, ground squirrels chasing and killing voles in predatory behavior that were recorded before.
00:22:49
Experts say it fundamentally changes their understanding of squirrels, which clearly have more omnivorous and flexible diet than had been assumed.
00:22:55
This was shocking, said Squirrel X for Dr.
00:22:57
Jennifer Smith of the University of Wisconsin.
00:22:59
We had never seen this behavior before.
00:23:00
Squirrels are one of the most familiar animals to people.
00:23:03
We see them right outside our windows, we interact with them regularly, but they started to see in this.
00:23:08
And the first time they noted it was in Contra Costa County in 2010.
00:23:13
And when the person reported, they were like, "No, like you're crazy."
00:23:17
Then they, over the next several years, they saw 42% of the times that squirrels encountered voles.
00:23:24
They predated on them and killed them and ate them.
00:23:27
I found this interesting because they said, not in this part right here, but this is just the little Yahoo dance one, but I read one on the science.
00:23:37
It was just like when the big foots, when the rabbits showed about the desert areas of California in the '70s and '80s.
00:23:44
And they had a little valley, right?
00:23:46
Yeah, getting all the squabble reports was because of that.
00:23:49
And they said, "Volue populations were up 400% in these areas where the squirrels were eating them."
00:23:58
Interestingly, they said that the rabbit population was up 400% out there, and that's not really related.
00:24:04
But anyways, so they said it was because partially, as they were compared to the voles, there was too many of them as competitors, but also that animals adapt their diet to what is available,
00:24:18
like the more than they thought, which I thought was interesting because the dentition of a squirrel, it's teeth, and how big-foot, how carnivorous they can be, but people always report like we talked about in just the last episode,
00:24:31
how their whole school and head, jaws, and muscles and everything is set up for grinding and processing evermore or more diet.
00:24:41
But we know that they predate on elk and deer and everything else, anything else they can grab.
00:24:46
So, that was an adaptation to what was going on then, or you know, I just thought that was interesting on that point.
00:24:54
I think there's a whole host of animal behaviors that we're only now discovering even in species that we think we understand fully.
00:25:00
I mean, I wrote a bit about the book about orangutan hunting, actively hunting slow loruses, gibbons, rats, squirrels,
00:25:10
etc.
00:25:11
It tends to be in response to environmental changes with orangs because they're fruble or it would happen during times of fruit shortages, any number of factors, whether it's a seasonal thing or it's due to human activity,
00:25:23
etc.
00:25:24
And that's a fairly recent discovery.
00:25:26
I think that was like late 20th century, maybe the 1980s or something like that.
00:25:30
So it makes sense in sort of far away place like Indonesia to discover something new and rare in a rare ape species, but it's wild to think that there's anything left to be discovered about squirrels in North America,
00:25:43
you know what I mean?
00:25:44
Yeah, in the Bay Area, in the East Bay, but it's pretty bad at the same time because it does say that they were stalking and ambushing, which in a lot of other animals, those are learned behaviors that take generations to sort of formulate and to be implemented.
00:25:59
You know, tigers are a great example of that.
00:26:01
So it's pretty amazing that I guess, like Bobo said, maybe in the last couple of decades, maybe since 2010, but spiking now in 2024 that they've adopted and learned and employed these behaviors successfully.
00:26:14
That's wild.
00:26:15
Yeah, of course, whenever there's too much of any sort of animal, the other animal, as Bobo noted, like in the Antelope Valley back in the 70s when all those rabbits showed up suddenly, there were bigfoot reports there, right?
00:26:24
So it's one of the things that I look for, at least when I'm looking for a bigfoot spot, it's where there's too much of a certain kind of animal.
00:26:30
And that kind of sort of thing isn't easily observed, get kind of to be out there or hear about it through the great vine and go check it out.
00:26:37
But I remember talking about that sort of thing always brings to mind a report I took many, many years ago.
00:26:43
It was probably still in the BFRO database in the Sierra Nevada mountains.
00:26:48
There was a biologist who saw this Sasquatch while hiking up trail during the summer at a ski resort, like Sierra, something ski resort.
00:26:58
I don't know.
00:26:59
I'm sure you can find it on the BFRO side if you look.
00:27:01
But this guy was hiking up to this meadow to do a survey.
00:27:05
He's a biologist, like I said, do a survey of the plants and he saw what he thought was a tall, thin female Sasquatch on the way up and whatever else.
00:27:14
And when I was talking to him afterwards, I said, I was asked, you know, of course, how big was it?
00:27:18
But, you know, it was a hair and all that sort of stuff.
00:27:20
But I asked him, I was like, so you don't see anything unusual, like whether too many of a certain kind of plant because he's a biologist, so I asked I think like too many of a certain kind of plan or was there anything unusual about the balance of nature that you saw on the way up or down.
00:27:35
He goes, yeah, now that you mentioned that there is something, all these little creeks that I was crossing had more brook trout in them than I've ever seen anywhere else in my entire life.
00:27:45
In fact, you could practically walk on them.
00:27:47
I've never seen so many in any place in my entire life.
00:27:52
So, well, isn't that something?
00:27:54
So again, when too much of something shows up, the animals are not going to be that far behind, whether it's Sasquatch's or squirrels in this case.
00:28:03
There's one more thing before I pass the mic, so to speak, is there's a photograph in this particular Yahoo news article of a squirrel holding a furry,
00:28:14
delicious chunk of a bowl and eating it and like pulling like the fat and stuff away or the meat away and it's all stretching out.
00:28:22
But I don't know if you guys are looking at this same picture or not, but man, what a bad ass-looking squirrel that is.
00:28:26
Look, the left ear.
00:28:27
The left ear is like half missing.
00:28:29
Like that thing's gnarly.
00:28:31
That thing is gnarly, but I guess when your food fights back, as pretty much all carnivores have to deal with, that's bound to happen eventually.
00:28:39
It is pretty bad ass.
00:28:40
It's successful kills often involve decapitation, so they're pretty ruthless, little warlords.
00:28:47
Yeah.
00:28:48
And of course, they're not the only, what about deer, deer and elk?
00:28:50
They don't get enough credit for being the monsters that they are as well, either.
00:28:55
Like again, I'll go back.
00:28:56
I mentioned this during my life presentation sometimes, but there's an amazing video.
00:29:00
In fact, I'm not even sure we should post a proof, but it's up to you if you want to do it or not.
00:29:04
But there's this amazing video on YouTube.
00:29:07
Everybody knows what a body farm is, I assume, where you could leave your body to science and they'd leave your corpse out in various conditions.
00:29:14
And forensic scientists come and study how it decomposes, and that helps police officers solve crimes and cold cases and all that sort of stuff, you know, forensic science stuff.
00:29:24
These are called body farms.
00:29:25
I think there's one in Tennessee, there's one in Texas, maybe, they seem to be more prevalent in the South.
00:29:30
They have the major ones associated with the University of Tennessee outside of Knoxville.
00:29:34
I actually had a chance to go there in, I think it was 2007, but I didn't get to go, but some people that, you know, that I took that tracking course, the Joel Harden tracking course with, a couple of my Georgia friends,
00:29:45
they had an invite to go there as part of a tracking, sort of like a search and rescue training thing and open invite and I really wanted to go, but maybe, maybe I'm glad, maybe just a blessing that I didn't go see that because they described some of the things they saw and it was pretty gnarly.
00:30:00
Yeah, you can't unsee that stuff.
00:30:01
That's for sure.
00:30:02
Well, and of course, that's also where Dr.
00:30:05
Grover crant slept his body after he died and it kind of get pecked by bugs and insects and stuff.
00:30:11
And we didn't tell him what we brought it up.
00:30:13
No, no, no, I'll get there, but you know, of course, crant's bones are in the Smithsonian, but his body was actually taken care of one of these body farms, so you can keep on teaching.
00:30:21
But anyway, there's this video from one of these places, and of course, they have to tie the bodies down a lot of times because they would be dragged away by scavengers of various sorts.
00:30:31
But in one of these videos taken by a trail cam at one of these body farms is a deer standing over a human corpse kind of pecking at it.
00:30:40
And like at one point, if I remember right, it looks up at the camera and actually has a human rib bone in its mouth.
00:30:45
Yeah.
00:30:46
Yeah, an entirely new perspective on Bambi.
00:30:50
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo, we'll be right back after these messages.
00:31:02
There's two different videos of deer like hunting and killing and eating snakes.
00:31:06
Snakes?
00:31:07
I've seen one with mice in it before.
00:31:09
I didn't know about the snake one.
00:31:10
That's cool.
00:31:11
Yeah.
00:31:12
There's a pretty big snake, too, that one, the one got.
00:31:15
That's crazy.
00:31:16
I hadn't seen that.
00:31:17
I'll have to check that out.
00:31:18
And of course, part of the reason they do this is that calcium is a very, very rare commodity in North American forest, especially if you're an herbivore.
00:31:25
So they have to get the calcium, yeah, an ungulate, right?
00:31:28
So you have to get a calcium from somewhere, otherwise you can't grow those antlers.
00:31:31
Yeah.
00:31:32
You do the antlers for sure.
00:31:34
Yeah.
00:31:35
Who doesn't?
00:31:37
So Bob might not have grown back since I shed.
00:31:39
You have to wonder if anyone's ever observed this behavior and tried to report it and wasn't believed, like, hey, I saw a squirrel hunt and kill a rodent and decapitated and people.
00:31:49
Yeah.
00:31:50
Sure you did, buddy.
00:31:51
You know what I mean?
00:31:52
You know it.
00:31:53
The professional wasn't believed at first.
00:31:55
But you know, as you say, the reason I brought up that whole thing about the squirrels was because related to Bigfoot was do you think then that was a later adaptation, whether they came more carnivorous, like started eating,
00:32:05
like way more meat after they've already evolved into this giant, flat, masticating, giant head?
00:32:12
Yeah.
00:32:13
That's the kind of the theory that I floated in the book was that, you know, it could be the case that due to the same pressures that cause a rangs to shift to hunting pressure or the same pressures that get put on chimpanzees in places where they become more reliant on hunting.
00:32:30
I try to pull examples from the known apes to say, well, under these circumstances and some of those are due to human conflict or competition.
00:32:40
And so, you know, I'm using the gigantic Pithicus model in the book, but giganticos shared the landscape.
00:32:45
You know, they were Sympathric with Homo erectus for over a million years and there would have been overlap with Homo sapiens.
00:32:50
You know, the most recent gigantic Pithicus fossils in Asia are from the Langtran cave in northern Vietnam.
00:32:56
Those are roughly like 80 to 100,000 years old.
00:32:59
And then it's zero in dong, zero in cave, or the oldest Homo sapiens remains, which are dated somewhere between like 100,000 and 120,000 years old.
00:33:07
So, there is some overlap, especially assuming like, that wasn't the very first human who showed up there and that wasn't the very last chimpanzee because they died there, you know what I mean?
00:33:17
So I try to lay out like, here's all these factors that might have driven these generalist herbivores to start exploiting meat as a food resource.
00:33:28
And we see that in these other well-documented, the known apes and all those factors could easily apply or any combination of all those factors.
00:33:36
So yeah, I would think that that would be the case.
00:33:38
Yeah, particularly like traveling in more temperate regions where fruit would probably be more scarce, I would think than tropical regions, for example.
00:33:49
Maybe I'm way off on that, but it seems to me that there's a lot of berries and that sort of thing, but it seems to be that fruit in general is just a bit more rare once you get up a 45th parallel, you know, certainly.
00:33:59
All right, well, let's go on to another article here.
00:34:02
This one is we found it on earth.com and the title is chimpanzees can plan and adapt their use of tools just like humans.
00:34:11
And for me, like, you know, I'm not one to underestimate apes, I don't think very much.
00:34:16
I know how amazing they are.
00:34:17
I know how human like they are and also how ape like humans are, you know, we're all family, so to speak.
00:34:25
And so in a way, I almost struggled with this in a way because to me, finding out that chimpanzees, okay, can use and discern which tools are the best and adapt to them,
00:34:36
to me, it's like a no duh moment.
00:34:39
But at the same time, and my big takeaway for them, well, let me let me tell you about the article, I guess first, but basically they found that chimpanzees went when presented with a bunch of different kinds of stones.
00:34:52
They would choose the best stone for that particular job, okay?
00:34:55
Now, even if the stones weren't from that location, so they would introduce stones to an area with a bunch of nuts, for example, and then breaking of nuts by stone is a known chimpanzee behavior,
00:35:10
right?
00:35:11
So they would introduce a bunch of stones that were not necessarily from that area and a variety of shapes and sizes and this and that and whatever, and the chimpanzees would go through and choose the ones that they felt would work the best.
00:35:25
And to their surprise, they often chose correctly.
00:35:28
And also to their surprise, if the chimpanzee halfway through the task decided that this isn't doing it, they would find the right kind of tool that would help them do it better.
00:35:39
And I guess the big takeaway for me is that for even though it seems like no duh, yeah, of course, of course they're going to do that.
00:35:49
Anybody would do that, you know?
00:35:51
But you know, for a lot of scientists, chimpanzees aren't necessarily buddies, you know?
00:35:55
Anybody, isn't a person, you know, they aren't people enough to do that.
00:35:59
But at the same time, of course they would, of course they would, but and so I started thinking about it.
00:36:05
It's like, why is this really science?
00:36:06
Why is this news?
00:36:07
And I realized, oh, it's actually because of the science that this is news, because it is observed and documented and measured now.
00:36:15
Things that are obvious may not be scientifically, it was not like they're not scientifically true.
00:36:23
There's another time describing this.
00:36:26
Things that are obvious that you wouldn't think would need to be proven, sure go the extra mile when you have data to support it.
00:36:33
You know?
00:36:34
It reminds me of when Dr.
00:36:35
Anna Nicaris was asking me about Sasquatch behavior and I was telling her and she was, well, how do you know this?
00:36:40
And I go, well, this and this and this and she's, yeah, but where's your data?
00:36:44
And I realized, oh, shoot, I don't really have data necessarily.
00:36:47
I have accounts that would, but data isn't really data into it.
00:36:50
Well, I guess it is, but you got to crunch it.
00:36:52
You got to analyze it.
00:36:53
You got to do the work with the data to make it mean something.
00:36:57
And to me, oddly enough, that's the takeaway from this article for me at least is that things that seem obvious may still need to be supported with evidence, otherwise you're just talking out your butt,
00:37:08
you know, at the end of the day, like of course Sasquatches do this.
00:37:11
Of course they do that.
00:37:13
Well, how do you know that?
00:37:14
Well, because everybody knows that, well, a lot of those things aren't true, well, because I saw this once, you know, once, to say that they do this implies that the entire species does this and so even something as obvious as a very intelligent animal,
00:37:30
like a chimpanzee, would choose the appropriate tool for the job or change its strategy if the initial choice wasn't the right one.
00:37:41
Even as something as obvious and the written as that still needs to be supported with data and evidence, otherwise again, you're just talking about what you feel and nobody cares.
00:37:54
You know, your feelings don't go very far in science.
00:37:56
They need supporting observations and data to make it not true because it's true anyway.
00:38:03
Again, science doesn't tell you what's true.
00:38:07
Science tells you what's supported by evidence.
00:38:10
We can see what's true, but you know, science isn't the dictator of what is true and what's false.
00:38:17
That's what we can learn out of what is true and what's false, you know.
00:38:20
Am I making sense here or what helped me out, guys, am I making sense or can you clarify what I'm trying to say?
00:38:26
You guys don't be well enough.
00:38:27
Yeah, for something to be considered scientifically valid, it needs to be not only documented but quantifiable.
00:38:33
Yeah.
00:38:34
All right.
00:38:35
Well, I should have just passed the mic to you to begin with and good end of this podcast in half hour ago.
00:38:38
No, no, no.
00:38:39
I know it's definitely worth talking those things through and talking them out because there's a number of things that we could probably bring up as an example that are, you know,
00:38:49
within the known category colloquially, but maybe not scientifically validated to the standard that other things have been validated or at least verified via data that's quantifiable.
00:39:04
And there's a number of things that just cannot be studied.
00:39:07
Like, I end up talking about this a lot because we focus a lot on instinct and what things are innate and hardwired instincts and what things are learned, you know, nature versus nurture,
00:39:18
you know, certain learned complex behaviors in the reality is like, you cannot observe instincts.
00:39:23
They're unobservable.
00:39:24
You can observe behavior from which you can infer an instinct, especially if you're looking at a population that spans across multiple environments, multiple ecosystems, let's say.
00:39:35
And if a behavior is stable, regardless of the environment, then that's more likely to be an instinct versus if it's more labile that its context dependent and only occurs in certain environments and not others among the same species,
00:39:50
then it's more likely to be learned.
00:39:52
But again, you can't observe an instinct.
00:39:54
You can't prove the existence of an instinct.
00:39:56
You can only infer it from observing, documenting, and quantifying instances of behavior.
00:40:03
And so I think things like this do point to maybe both nature and nurture and the fact that it is shared across closely related species suggests,
00:40:14
or from which we can infer that maybe those things predated the last common ancestor between ourselves and chimps.
00:40:22
And of course, this whole breaking of nuts sort of thing, you know, this whole nutcracker sort of observation with the behavior they are observing, this president's assquatches as well.
00:40:34
And the best stuff that I've seen came out of the N-E-W-A-C paper, forgot what that's called, but you know what I'm talking about.
00:40:41
The Washtetaw Project Monograph.
00:40:43
And I've seen some of those nutcrushing stations.
00:40:46
I've seen several of them down there in area X and they are pretty remarkable to see.
00:40:53
It's hard to find an alternative explanation other than that something with hands was responsible for that.
00:40:59
And given the location of some of these, it's like, I don't think it was people.
00:41:02
And then some of them are in not obvious places, but in places that are easy to see from old road beds and things like that where, you know, I guess someone who really skeptical could say,
00:41:13
well, yeah, person did this, but it's like for what reason to what end.
00:41:16
But then we found ones that were well away from anything kind of in the heart of big thickets in secondary drainages that feed to the main creek where you're like, oh, here's another example,
00:41:28
like that's pretty bizarre.
00:41:30
So I can link to the paper there because yeah, most people who are interested in the subject should read that paper.
00:41:35
And the paper's pretty scientific and for that reason intentionally sterile.
00:41:39
I mean, there's a lot of exciting things outlined in that paper, but it doesn't quite read like a narrative because it's presented like a monograph that details an observational field study.
00:41:48
But if you want the story, the narrative version, you know, my good friend Mike Mays, his book Valley of the Apes to Search for Saskatchewan area X is a fantastic read.
00:41:57
So I'll put links to actually both of those, the free PDF document that the NAWC offers.
00:42:03
And if you want to read Mike's book, I'll link that as well.
00:42:05
Yeah.
00:42:06
And just whatever is worth, we have autographed copies of that in the NAVC store.
00:42:11
That's the link I'll put in.
00:42:13
Everybody wins.
00:42:14
Yeah.
00:42:15
Yeah.
00:42:16
And then our next to last article, we do have an article that Bobo submitted that's well in keeping with one of my favorite books on the evolution of Apes altogether.
00:42:24
So if you want to set up the, that article, yeah, they had a recent discovery and it will not that recent, but I guess the school was found in 2015 and it's really well preserved in the Anatolian section of Anatolia mountains of Turkey.
00:42:40
And it's kind of, there's been a lot more theory coming that hominids actually originated out of Europe and dispersed back into Africa.
00:42:49
They found this school, it's like 8.7 million, 8.7 million years old, they is the best guess on that.
00:42:57
And they're part of the earliest known group of hominids, which includes not only African Apes like chimpanzees, binobos and gorillas, but also humans and their fossil ancestors.
00:43:05
So yeah, that theory is gaining traction, and especially with this, this goal, because it suggests not only that hominids not only evolved in Western and Central Europe,
00:43:16
but it's spent over 5 million years evolving there and spreading to Eastern Mediterranean before eventually dispersing the Africa, probably is a consequence of changing environments and diminishing forests.
00:43:26
Yeah, I've got a problem with that though, they're not using the word hominid correctly.
00:43:30
They're using hominid as a derivative of a larger group.
00:43:35
I was just going to say that, I caught that, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but...
00:43:39
No, no, no, no, I probably cut you off, I apologize.
00:43:43
No, because I was questioning myself, they're in science, magazine can't get this wrong.
00:43:50
There's this whole article in a doubt.
00:43:52
Well, I think we're seeing the earth.com version, so it's their reporting of the source article.
00:43:59
Very often people get those things wrong, and they don't differentiate between hominid, hominids and hominids in popular media that gets screwed up very often.
00:44:08
And then that sort of misunderstanding gets applied colloquially, and so I end up spending a lot of time clarifying that for people of the various differences and trying to find analogies that work.
00:44:21
I end up, because I'm food motivated, I try to explain to people well, it's like all hominids are hominids and hominoids, but not all hominids are hominids, and not all hominids are hominids.
00:44:32
So it's like all immonins are chocolates, but not all chocolates are immonins, and all chocolates are candy, but not all candies are chocolates.
00:44:40
Right.
00:44:41
We're gonna confuse them.
00:44:42
Exactly.
00:44:43
The thing you get, or you're done, I guess.
00:44:48
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Clif and Bobo, we'll be right back after these messages.
00:44:59
The first time I heard of hominids and hominids was to meet you by and off, the great late Russian researcher for the almocy, what they call them the Russian snowman, yes, what they call them,
00:45:10
the snowman, but when did that start, the hominid, hominid?
00:45:14
It's fairly recent, I think, because it's been a lot of back and forth over the last few decades, even.
00:45:19
I think the Russians introduced it, I think, like those guys, like, to meet you in his crew, I think they might have actually been the guys that started that.
00:45:26
Well, they didn't originate that denomination clature, because the denomination clature was used for, you know, the living apes, including humans and fossil apes.
00:45:34
And then there were, there's older tax on, or taxa, that I still see, like, Pongad is now obsolete taxa, and that I still see people use that you would have seen in print, like the 80s and maybe even the 90s,
00:45:46
but is now considered obsolete.
00:45:48
Everything that was once Pongad is now housed under hominid.
00:45:52
And so orangutans are not considered pongads, they're hominids, like gorillas, et cetera.
00:45:58
And then outside of that, you have lesser apes, which are hominoids, hominoids includes the lesser apes, the great apes, the human, human relatives, et cetera, human ancestral relatives.
00:46:09
And so that denomination clature does change quite a bit over time.
00:46:12
First, it was Boris Porschenov, the original Russian researcher into mystery apes.
00:46:18
And he posited the term relict hominoid to include, like, wherever these things fall on that family tree, they will be hominoids, whether they're discovered to be hominids or hominins,
00:46:28
at some point they'll all be under that larger umbrella of hominoid.
00:46:32
And meldrum resurrected that term, probably maybe 15 years ago, something of that nature.
00:46:40
Not only with, he later titled his journal, the relict hominoid inquiry, but with that same thing in mind, giving a tip of the hat to Porschenov, but also saying, no matter what these things turn out to be,
00:46:51
whether Sasquatch is a ranked index, the migoid, yay-rin, whatever the case may be, they will certainly all be hominoids, no matter where else they all hire up on that branching.
00:47:03
So I think Demetri might have been putting the cart before the horse to refer to some of those things as hominins.
00:47:09
So I think Porschenov was key to-- he had the right idea.
00:47:14
And Porschenov's book has recently been translated into English and published, but to further confuse the matter between the almas, the almas, the captar, you know,
00:47:24
these various Asian and Central Asian mystery apes, the Barmanu, etc., which are markedly different than the Sasquatch in many ways.
00:47:33
When Porschenov's manuscript was printed in English, they called it the Soviet Sasquatch.
00:47:37
So it's like, they did Porschenov a disservice, but it's a great read, I recommend everyone read that.
00:47:44
I'll put a link to that in the show notes too.
00:47:46
I was surprised how big these things were.
00:47:48
They're between 50 and 60 kilograms, so like 110 to 135, 140 pounds, which is-- the chimpanzee size.
00:47:56
Yeah, a big, big chimp.
00:47:58
The fossils suggest that Anodolubius lived in a dry forest environment and left me spending a significant amount of time on the ground.
00:48:07
I was going to say one of my favorite-- because they referenced David Began here at the University of Toronto.
00:48:13
Because as soon as I saw the headline of the article you sent, I thought, oh, this is right up Began's alley because Began wrote a book a number of years ago called The Real Planet of the Apes, and he's one of the major proponents and makes an extremely compelling case for what we would call modern apes,
00:48:29
or apes in the modern sense, having evolved in Eurasia rather than Africa.
00:48:35
Even though primates came out of Africa, but whatever turned into modern apes, having occurred in Eurasia.
00:48:41
He wrote a great book about it.
00:48:42
It's one of my favorite books about the apes.
00:48:45
And so as soon as I open the article and you see Professor David Began from the University of Toronto, you know, and Professor Alia Sevim, a role, I might be mispronouncing that from Ankara University,
00:48:56
led the international team of researchers who conducted this study.
00:48:59
Began is someone I would love to speak to at some point in time, just because I loved his book so much.
00:49:06
It's a really fascinating insight, and he does have a bit of a big-foot reference in there.
00:49:12
In fact, he's been featured in a few big-foot documentaries.
00:49:15
I can't remember if it was something like Monster Quaster.
00:49:17
I've seen him in some of these one-off things, and even in the real planet of the apes, he says, quote, "I hesitate to bring this up, but while we all know about the reports about gigantic bipedal ape roaming the forests of the northwestern wilderness of North America and parts of northern Central Asia."
00:49:33
And then he goes on to describe it a bit, and he says, "There's no evidence of big-foot, but I am among some.
00:49:39
I suspect many professionals who wish that this were not so."
00:49:43
And so he's got a little bit of hopefulness, and he says, "You know, I conclude with some sadness that there's no evidence of big-foot, but I hope to be proven wrong, and I look forward to the feedback from the community of believers."
00:49:53
So it seems like he's somewhat open, so he's someone I'd love to talk to.
00:49:58
So maybe a listener in Toronto will pass this along that we're celebrating his work.
00:50:03
Hey, what else can he ask for from a working primatologist?
00:50:06
Is an open mind about the evidence?
00:50:09
Because I think the primatologist themselves, some of which, listen to this podcast, I might say, so hello, are probably the first to admit that they haven't been exposed to a wide breadth of evidence,
00:50:21
and certainly not enough to move the dial, you know.
00:50:25
But that's where we come in, a fairly normal, sober, pretty intelligent group of people who are advocating for evidence, because I'll say it all the time.
00:50:34
It's a ternished mechanic quote, but I say it all the time.
00:50:37
The truth can withstand the scrutiny.
00:50:39
Come on in, take a look at the evidence, let's get to the bottom of this.
00:50:42
Absolutely.
00:50:43
I reference Beacon's book and my book, it's, it's just such a great book.
00:50:48
So again, I'll link that in the show notes.
00:50:50
I think anyone who's interested in this stuff should read David Beacon's book, but this article will obviously be linked there as well.
00:50:57
It's on the bookshelf behind me right now.
00:50:59
It's a great one.
00:51:00
Okay, well, you know, that brings us to our last article, and this is the, I have to admit, this is my favorite, then we have a very special treat for everybody today, too, that goes along with this.
00:51:09
But first, let's talk about the article.
00:51:11
The article is actually a press release more than anything else.
00:51:16
There's the title right here, hang or one publishing author, Tom Powell issues a formal statement amidst drone sighting speculation.
00:51:25
Now, of course, everybody knows about all the drones over New Jersey and many, many, many other parts of the country.
00:51:32
My wife was following this pretty closely for a while, because she's a big UFO fan.
00:51:37
And New Jersey got most of the press, but apparently this was happening in other places throughout the United States.
00:51:42
I know that a bunch of stuff was seen outside of Eugene, Oregon down here.
00:51:46
There's some up in Washington, there's Seattle, where else?
00:51:49
Probably a few other handful of places that I'm forgetting right now, but the drone thing, which is kind of died down at this moment, but they're still going on, apparently.
00:51:58
This sort of thing is still going on.
00:51:59
And of course, many, many of these drones are just normal aircraft, right?
00:52:03
Many, many of them.
00:52:05
But not all of them, and even scientists and the pilots and the military folks and the governments and stuff, even they admit that like, yeah, some of those are just normal things and people are panicking over nothing.
00:52:19
But there's something going on.
00:52:20
And of course, everybody knows that these hearings were going on because politicians in New Jersey and the area were going, hey, government, you're not really doing anything about this stuff.
00:52:31
But if these are not ours, and you say they're not ours, they say that they're not this or that, but you're not telling us what they are, but you're saying, oh, but don't worry about it.
00:52:41
That's not a lot of comfort, I suppose.
00:52:46
We don't know what they are, but you don't need to worry about it.
00:52:48
Well, that's not good enough, right?
00:52:50
That's ridiculous.
00:52:51
So the article here, I'm going to read some of this stuff just because it's awesome.
00:52:58
Tom Powell addresses recent drone sighting speculation.
00:53:01
Of course, Tom Powell, if you're new to the program here, he is a kind of a prolific author about weird stuff.
00:53:08
He started out as a big footer.
00:53:09
In fact, he started out as flesh and blood, big footer.
00:53:12
And I think he got kind of bored with it and found other things to look into and started exploring the weird side of stuff, went paranormal, and now he's kind of all over the place paranormal.
00:53:23
We just had him on the podcast for the second time, just a couple months ago, maybe this past summer, if I remember right.
00:53:28
We had him on years and years and years ago and we were first starting out as well.
00:53:31
He's a good friend of everybody's on the podcast and one of our favorite people in the world, let alone in the paranormal community, which I don't really consider myself in the paranormal community at all.
00:53:41
But I know a lot of the people out there, and as long as we're not weird and pushy about it and stuff and defensive, I love it.
00:53:47
And Tom is really the poster child for that.
00:53:50
He said, "Clap, I'm so glad you're doing the ape thing."
00:53:53
That means I don't have to.
00:53:54
There's way better things to look into.
00:53:56
He's encouraging of my work and I'm encouraging of his work, he's just awesome.
00:54:01
So here's the press release, though.
00:54:03
Portland, Oregon, December 23rd, 2024, renowned paranormal phenomenon research and Hangar One publishing author Tom Powell has issued a formal statement addressing recent speculation regarding the connection between mysterious drone sightings and the release of his latest book,
00:54:21
Planet Strange.
00:54:23
While the timing has led to considerable speculation, I want to be absolutely clear that neither eye nor anyone associated with my work has any involvement with the recent drone incidents.
00:54:35
States Powell.
00:54:36
These sightings, so coincidentally aligned, with themes explored in Planet Strange are entirely separate from my book's release and promotional activities.
00:54:45
The statement comes in response to growing social media speculation linking the unexplained aerial phenomenon to the book's publication.
00:54:53
Planet Strange, which examines various paranormal occurrences and their potential local origins, was really several months before the report of drone sightings began.
00:55:01
So, yeah, so that's the jet it goes on.
00:55:03
You can read about it.
00:55:04
We'll be posting this with the show links and stuff.
00:55:06
So just to be clear, everybody, Tom Powell himself has come out to say he has nothing to do with the recent drone sightings in New Jersey, so everybody can relax about that.
00:55:18
Yeah, but that's exactly what I would expect, a MacAvelian intergalactic mastermind to say.
00:55:23
Yeah.
00:55:24
Everyone will say, like, what Tom Powell's, I can't hear this, Tom Powell's behind this, Tom Powell's behind it.
00:55:30
Well, you know, you don't have to listen to me.
00:55:32
As I tell everybody almost every week here, don't believe me.
00:55:35
Go look it up for yourself.
00:55:36
Fact check me.
00:55:37
I'm wrong all the time.
00:55:38
Let's, let's, you probably heard enough of us by now.
00:55:41
Let's go straight to the source.
00:55:42
Let's go out to the field.
00:55:43
Our roving weird, our senior weird correspondent, Tom Powell is actually on the line right now.
00:55:49
Okay.
00:55:50
So here we are with Tom Powell, our official senior beyond correspondent, senior weird correspondent here on Bigfoot and Beyond.
00:55:59
Thank you, Tom, for joining us.
00:56:00
I understand you have some thoughts on a certain topic.
00:56:03
I have thoughts on many topics.
00:56:05
Exactly.
00:56:06
And I kind of wouldn't mind making this like a regular feature whenever you have something to add for something that's in the news or something you want to add, I think it would be a fantastic opportunity for you to come on and share your thoughts with us because it's a lot of fun to talk to you all the time.
00:56:18
You're always up to something weird.
00:56:20
Don't get me started.
00:56:23
Sometimes I don't want you to stop.
00:56:24
Let alone start.
00:56:25
You know, well, you know, everybody's paying attention right now, I guess, to these new jersey drones.
00:56:31
I mean, I, I don't know which, if our listeners have been paying attention, it seems like everybody has all these drones are flying over New Jersey.
00:56:37
There's, there's panic in the streets.
00:56:39
People are saying they're UFOs.
00:56:42
That knows what's going on.
00:56:44
The government, of course, is in full denial mode.
00:56:47
Money maker has been tweeting and putting things on Facebook about plasmoids.
00:56:51
There's this all sorts of crazy stuff out there right now.
00:56:55
Maybe you don't have this thing nailed down, but you have some thoughts on this and I'd love to know what they are.
00:57:00
Okay.
00:57:01
Well, I could summarize the whole thing in two words, Christmas drones, Christmas drones.
00:57:09
So you used to live in Portland, do you remember that Christmas ships?
00:57:13
They'd fail around with a million lights on blasting their horns.
00:57:17
They weren't stealth, you know, they weren't trying to sneak into submarine pens and blow them up.
00:57:23
They were out there advertising their thing.
00:57:25
They were the Christmas ships and they would sail up and down to a land of river, that Columbia river, wherever.
00:57:32
And everybody would go out and enjoy the lights.
00:57:36
Well, it was a seasonal thing and I think there are perhaps paranormal entities who wish to sort of like join in on that.
00:57:49
They must know it's Christmas and so they're advertising, I mean, look, look at the situation.
00:57:58
They're not being stealth.
00:58:00
There's a million YouTube videos and these things are advertising their presence and in most cases, they're flashing red and green lights,
00:58:11
which is like an FAA requirement, but they don't behave like aircraft, but they're certainly not being stealth.
00:58:20
Now, think about this for a minute, you know, you have to apply some rules of logic.
00:58:24
If they're not being stealth, then they can't be for an adversaries.
00:58:30
For an adversaries would not come in with lights on nor would advance military come in with lights on nor would they test their stuff in public.
00:58:42
They would test it all over secret bases at night and they admit this thing.
00:58:47
So gee, could it be all these private hobbyists who bought drones at Best Buy?
00:58:52
You know, because the things are way too large in many cases and they have very long flight times and they're flight characteristics,
00:59:04
they're not hobbyists.
00:59:06
If it's a government thing, then it would have to be a siop, in other words, a psychological operation, but it doesn't really square with that either.
00:59:17
And so once you eliminate these other possibilities, the only other one is what could be called paranormal.
00:59:26
You could call it otherworldly.
00:59:30
Most people go, "Oh, with its aliens, then."
00:59:32
And it's like, "Well, it is, but it isn't."
00:59:36
It's what might be most accurately described as intraworldly.
00:59:43
In other words, they aren't necessarily coming across space to put up these aerial displays just after sunset.
00:59:55
They could be entities that already live here, or are already here in some form, but are staying out of sight.
01:00:04
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo, we'll be right back after these messages.
01:00:15
Now are you talking like quote-unquote "interdimensional" or whatever that means?
01:00:19
Well, I'm talking about it.
01:00:20
Well, yes, whatever that means.
01:00:21
But the problem is we don't really have the right word and alien is definitely not it.
01:00:28
But on the other hand, that's definitely what it is.
01:00:32
It is not advanced military, it's not foreign adversary, it's not private hobbyists, it's probably not sci-op because it has too many layers.
01:00:42
Sci-ops come and they go as soon as they're over with, and if there was a sci-op, it would be for a reason like they want to change the laws and restrict drone use and things like that.
01:00:54
But here's the problem.
01:00:55
The things that are being observed are ultra-sophisticated.
01:00:59
They're silent.
01:01:00
They have a detection and encounter.
01:01:01
They do not admit radio ads.
01:01:03
They're ultra long flight times and they're flight characteristics to fly conventional physics.
01:01:11
So that leaves us with alien even though that's the wrong word.
01:01:17
If they come from within the Earth or are somehow manifested by the Earth itself, which is this guy a hypothesis, then that's where I think you have to find a new word,
01:01:32
which could be something like human antecedents, intra-earthly entities, not inter, as in from another Earth, but from somewhere within this Earth,
01:01:46
or intra-dimensional, intra-terrestrial.
01:01:51
In other words, it's my view that they're emanating from the Earth and one of the reasons for this is because the objects, when they are photographed,
01:02:02
do not look like outer space craft.
01:02:05
You know the classic flying saucers for the most part.
01:02:09
But money maker is right that you have these plasmoids as he's calling them and that is a physics thing.
01:02:19
But the problem is when you approach these plasmoids, then they are theyed.
01:02:24
They shut off.
01:02:28
In some cases even disable the attacking drone that the cops or militaries putting up there to challenge them.
01:02:39
So as far as where they are seen, I mean, they're all over the place now.
01:02:45
My wife has been interested, Melissa has been interested in this for a while.
01:02:48
She's been following it.
01:02:49
They're not only in New Jersey, there's been stuff seen in Oregon in various places all throughout the country, Ohio, and it's not new.
01:02:57
There is really not much difference between what's going on now and what they were calling the Phoenix lights almost a decade ago.
01:03:05
And they've been manifesting in Seattle in similar ways over the summer.
01:03:11
But you know, of course, my joke is that they're doing this in a more conspicuous way over in New York and New Jersey and places like that because it's Christmas.
01:03:23
And then we respond by scrambling fighters.
01:03:25
Well, that's not exactly the Christmas spirit box.
01:03:30
So the red and green lights have nothing to do with the FAA regulations.
01:03:33
They have more to do with the Christmas season.
01:03:37
And another very hiss to possibility, but the point is, but whatever they're doing, they're advertising their presence.
01:03:46
It is almost a bit of humor that they're using FAA regulated lighting, where that red is on the right and the green is on the left.
01:03:58
But that's not happening all the time.
01:04:00
And like I say, when other drones approach them, they go blank, they're not emitting any noise.
01:04:08
They're not emitting radio waves.
01:04:12
And operational drones generally emit radio waves that are used to identify them as drones and so on and so forth.
01:04:22
So you know, they're definitely outside of conventional human constructs.
01:04:32
So that brings us to planet strange.
01:04:35
And you know, in the book, I did not in any way predict this phenomenon.
01:04:41
But I did sort of explain it.
01:04:45
And that is that it emanates from the Earth.
01:04:49
They don't have to be coming from, you know, far off regions of the galaxy or beyond.
01:04:57
They did arrive in some form thousands of years ago and established themselves here on planet Earth.
01:05:06
But more recently, as within their recorded history, they decided to not manifest and let humanity have the Earth's surface.
01:05:16
But they probably still inhabit the planet in some form.
01:05:21
In other words, there appears to be this, you know, other realm, subterranean, which in a way makes them interdimensional because, you know,
01:05:31
subterranean is another dimension.
01:05:33
We sort of inhabit the surface dimension, you know, we're more or less two-dimensional.
01:05:39
We go up and down a little bit, but not a lot.
01:05:41
But if you go down deep in the Earth, then you could be arguably in another dimension.
01:05:49
And but still come from the Earth.
01:05:54
And I mean, it's like, so how would I even know or suggest such a thing?
01:05:59
And unfortunately, the answer ends up being a very book-length question.
01:06:05
And that's the gist of shady neighbors, I mean, not shady neighbors, sorry, the planet strange.
01:06:13
You got to read the book.
01:06:15
And there are several lines of evidence that I present in planet strange that suggest the existence of a subterranean realm.
01:06:28
And the question then becomes, well, why are they manifesting now?
01:06:33
And I think my answer is, well, it's time.
01:06:38
We are finally progressing, and there's enough people like out there who are really just doing everything they can to bring the world into acceptance of this other set of beings,
01:06:53
these intra-earthly beings, or however you want to call them.
01:06:58
It's time.
01:07:00
Even though this is a very widespread phenomenon, these things have been seen in very unusual places.
01:07:06
Like what is it?
01:07:07
The Picatinny Arsenal, I think, in the New Jersey area.
01:07:10
Trump's golf course, for example, is it just, are they choosing, in your opinion, of course, do you think they're choosing these locations for certain reasons, or is it just so widespread that,
01:07:22
of course, they would eventually be over there, too, because they're everywhere?
01:07:25
And the answer is yes, both of them, but a lot of people have observed is that they come in off the ocean in the evening,
01:07:36
as the sun is setting.
01:07:38
And there was even one YouTuber who went out in a boat, spent a lot of money, and wanted to see them maybe emanating from the water, which would not surprise me at all.
01:07:49
But the curious thing is that as this one YouTuber was going out off the coast of Cape Maine, New Jersey, here comes the drones, or we call them drones, but again,
01:08:00
they're the same as the Phoenix lights.
01:08:02
We just used this word "drone" now, and they came in from the ocean and over the land, but he stayed out there for a number of hours.
01:08:11
They never went back.
01:08:13
So where they're going is, of course, not completely explained or understood.
01:08:21
But there are examples that are right there on YouTube, other things coming out of the water and going into the water.
01:08:31
And so it does seem like they are, whatever they call, the kind of UAP, you know, unexplained aerial phenomena that is also a transmedium or another,
01:08:43
another, can go from water to land.
01:08:47
But there are examples of this, which again, to me, suggests that they're emanating from within the planet, but they probably have several ways of coming and going.
01:08:58
Now, remember, on our last podcast, you were a little bit disappointed that this new boat planet's transient have more to do with Bigfoot, and I said, "Look, look."
01:09:08
Oh, no, no.
01:09:09
I was thankful.
01:09:10
It didn't have a lot more to do with Bigfoot, Tom.
01:09:14
My quip, my reply was, "Well, I did three books.
01:09:17
If that's not enough to cover Bigfoot, then maybe I just need it, which years."
01:09:23
Well, interesting, my good friend, Tish Pequette, even a few years ago, I said, "I don't know, Tish.
01:09:30
I'm kind of done with this book thing."
01:09:31
And she said, "Oh, no.
01:09:33
You're going to do a fourth book."
01:09:35
Well, you know, she's a sensitive, of course, and oddly enough, she was correct.
01:09:42
Yeah, I'm very insensitive, I've been told.
01:09:44
So it works out well.
01:09:45
I didn't know it was coming.
01:09:46
I'm both.
01:09:47
Well, anyway, so the funny thing is that it really does cycle back to Bigfoot because, if the beings that are generating this phenomenon reside within the earth,
01:10:04
then they must be aware of the Sasquatch because I also advance the idea that the Sasquatch phenomenon also must emanate from planet Earth because there would be a need for privacy and identity that just doesn't seem to be available to them on the surface of the earth.
01:10:27
So I think in order to answer the Sasquatch phenomenon mysteries, we have to include other sources and other subjects of information,
01:10:40
widen our search, and then all of a sudden it appears that, well, just like these drones or whatever they are, they're staying hidden.
01:10:52
They don't necessarily want to, historically, meet us, but suddenly things have changed.
01:10:59
And if that's true, then it's because, perhaps, hopefully, humanity is becoming more sophisticated, mature, and, you know,
01:11:10
aware.
01:11:11
I like the hundredth monkey sort of thing, like you think we're coming to the tipping point.
01:11:16
And if that's true, then that's great news for those of us who follow the Sasquatch phenomenon because that provides hope that they,
01:11:27
too, might also choose to manifest sometime in the fairly near future.
01:11:37
Maybe not this week or next, but, you know, everything seems to go at its own rate.
01:11:42
But by next summer, I think you're going to be seeing an uptick in the Sasquatch business as well, and that would,
01:11:53
you know, sort of follow with this idea that we're becoming more aware and worthy of entering this, I don't know,
01:12:03
call it a galactic community, if you want.
01:12:08
Yeah.
01:12:09
I want to call it that when I finished a planet strange, there were several phenomenon that all have to be considered in order to understand this.
01:12:20
That's why I say it's book-length material.
01:12:23
There is, of course, the UFO phenomenon, but then there's this malin phenomenon that manifests worldwide.
01:12:29
The pyramids are an extremely peculiar thing.
01:12:32
Egyptians did not build those.
01:12:34
They were never tombs.
01:12:36
They were built for something else by entities that could move enormous amounts of material.
01:12:42
Calm mutilations totally defy logic, but also factor in in terms of, but for reasons that are really difficult to explain in one or two sentences.
01:12:52
Then there's Bimmeria triangles, not Bermuda triangle, but Bermuda triangles that manifest worldwide.
01:13:00
What those suggest about things that come and go from either other dimensions, or maybe just subterranean, and even scripture, when you look at the historical record,
01:13:12
not just the Hebrew Bible, but other similar documents, Sumerian and so forth, they talk about these exact kinds of things,
01:13:23
and then there's some of the more out there, things like the moon itself has got some peculiarities, but then you can't leave Sasquatch out of it.
01:13:34
They emanate from the earth.
01:13:40
The Sasquatch is another manifestation of this emergence of entities from within the earth, but it's just one that I've talked about so much that I kind of felt like I should maybe give it a back burner on this book.
01:13:57
Well, you've always been one of the people leading the charge for the grand unification theory of paranormal.
01:14:04
The GUT is a physics thing where they're trying to unite Einsteinian relativity with quantum physics, and then they have one equation, so to speak.
01:14:14
Maybe that's just a metaphor, though, but one equation to explain more or less everything.
01:14:18
Yes.
01:14:19
Wouldn't it be nice if we could stitch some of these seemingly separate things together, but I do feel like when you're not getting the answers you want,
01:14:29
you have to widen the search.
01:14:31
You have to consider other things that you may be excluding for reasons that are more have to do with bias and prejudice, then,
01:14:41
and you know, it's kind of like one of those Sherlock Holmes quotes, if you eliminate the possibilities than whatever remains no matter how impossible has to be the truth.
01:14:55
I'll tell you what, Tom, I've known you for a long time, and you've always given me amazing things to think about.
01:15:03
Sometimes you give me things to lay awake at night and worry about, but you always give me a candy for my brain.
01:15:11
Things that, and if anybody else out there, of course, listening right now, is intrigued by any of this, I would say Tom's book, Planet Strange is the best jumping off point you can get,
01:15:22
it's like watching all of the, I've said it on our main podcast that I went with you were on.
01:15:27
It's like watching all, it's like binge watching all of the insertions, all at once, and it is so much fun to read, and I'm so glad that you're involved in this, and also thank you very much for coming on and being our senior,
01:15:41
weird, beyond correspondence.
01:15:42
You are more than welcome to come back whenever you have something to say about anything that catches your eye or ear.
01:15:48
All right, well, I'll look forward to talking with you in the future, but everyone has their homework.
01:15:57
You have to read a book.
01:15:59
It would be nice if you could watch YouTube videos and get it, but sometimes you just have to read the book.
01:16:06
And he might as well read Tom's.
01:16:07
It's well written.
01:16:08
It's a lot of fun.
01:16:09
I read it.
01:16:10
Everybody knows that I'm like a stick in the mud, you know, April kind of guy, but I read it, and I really enjoyed it, and I think that's saying something.
01:16:16
You can buy it, but you can buy it on Amazon.
01:16:18
I, of course, prefer you buy it from the North American Bigfoot Center on our online store.
01:16:22
Matt Prudle put the links in the notes down there.
01:16:24
I'll get some copies out to you.
01:16:27
Fantastic.
01:16:28
All right.
01:16:29
So there you have it from our senior, beyond correspondent Tom Powell.
01:16:32
Thank you, Tom, very much for coming on, and I've never said this before.
01:16:35
Back to you, Cliff and Bobo.
01:16:37
Okay.
01:16:38
Thanks for that Cliff.
01:16:39
I really appreciate you.
01:16:40
And pal, I appreciate pal too, but Christmas drones, that, there's your answer for you.
01:16:45
Christmas drones.
01:16:46
And maybe that's why it's died down by now, because we are well into the first week of January at this point, right at the end of the, so maybe that's why it's died down because the holidays are over pretty much.
01:16:56
Maybe for you.
01:16:57
Okay.
01:16:58
Well, that's, that's the episode of Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
01:17:01
Thanks for tuning in.
01:17:02
We really appreciate it.
01:17:03
And for our member's section, we're going to go over another article that the most received article we've got was about the two gentlemen that unfortunately passed away up in Scumini County out there, Mount Hood area,
01:17:15
going out and getting trapped in the elements and passing away.
01:17:20
So we're going to talk about cold weather preparation and just preparation in general for going out in the woods with going to Squatchin.
01:17:27
So we'll be joining our Patreon family over there.
01:17:31
So thank you for listening.
01:17:32
And until next week, keep it Squatchy.
01:17:39
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01:17:43
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01:17:54
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