It’s easy to measure output. How many trainings. How many policies. How many messages. All "the things" we did to protect the company and shape a culture of ethics and integrity. But did any of those things work? And what does it even mean for something to “work"? In this episode of The Better Way?, Zach and Hui focus on the distinction between output and outcome—and advocate for a mindset of experimentation and verification. 

Drawing parallels to healthcare and public safety, they emphasize that true effectiveness involves behavioral change, risk reduction, and cultural alignment. But they also acknowledge that this is hard—so much harder than tallying up output. From FOFO (fear of finding out) to data access challenges, they unpack (some of) the reasons why compliance often falls into the output trap. And in the end, they call for a fundamental shift in mindset: one that starts with defining your desired outcomes, collecting meaningful data, and being brave enough to test whether what we’re doing is working.