This episode considers how 'systems thinking' tools, methods and approaches have been used in different fields. We speak to two leaders in applying systems thinking to business and organizational issues. The discussion covers the background to systems thinking, overcoming challenges, importance of building a foundation for change, notions of linear evaluation, some real-world failures and successes, and how current events demonstrate the need for systems thinking on a global scale.  Guests:  David Peter Stroh, Founding Director of Applied Systems ThinkingMichael Goodman, Founding Director of Applied Systems Thinking