This episode looks at the implementation challenges of systems thinking, in particular the political economy of adopting a systems thinking approach to health sector reforms, agenda setting and policy implementation. We speak to two policy makers about their experience using systems thinking to develop collaborations and partnerships, and to achieve consensus. Guests: Midori de Habich, former Minister of Health, PeruAndrew Leigh MP, Shadow Assistant Minister for Treasury and Charities and Federal Member for Fenner in the Australian Capital Territory