In this powerful and timely episode, Sena and Stacy sit down with renowned constitutional lawyer and founder of Including Society, Lwando Xaso, for a deep, clear-eyed exploration of the systems that have shaped — and continue to shape — South Africa.

Timed to fall in line with South Africa’s Freedom Day, this conversation reflects on the significance of democracy, constitutionalism, and unfinished reconciliation. While we often talk about racial systems and systemic racism, this episode zooms in specifically on the legal architecture that allowed racial segregation to thrive — and how its legacy lingers today through massive inequality, where white South Africans remain disproportionately empowered.

Lwando also shares her deeply personal journey: from clerking at the Constitutional Court to founding Including Society, a platform dedicated to building a more inclusive South Africa through civic engagement, education, and collective action.

This Freedom Day, as we celebrate the hard-won victories of the past, we also confront the realities of the present, and look towards a future where freedom is truly equitable.

00.00 - 06:07 Intro's and Lwando's journey to law

06:08 - 14:28 What we mean when we say systemic

14.29 - 22:34 The cruelty of citizenship

22:35 - 28:29 Parliamentary sovereignty, constitutional democracy

28.30 - 34.50 Reverse racism, the law and equality

34.50 - 39:19 The personal is political

39:20 - 47:32 Are we really free?