Israel vs. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran — and Itself
13Digest
This episode of the Ezra Klein Show features an interview with David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker, about the current situation in Israel and the West Bank. The episode delves into the complexities of the conflict, examining the role of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, the rise of religious nationalism in Israeli politics, and the potential for a shift in US-Israel relations. Remnick provides a detailed biography of Yahya Sinwar, highlighting his early life, his time in Israeli prisons, and his rise to power. He discusses Sinwar's understanding of Israeli society and his strategic use of hostage-taking, exploring the historical irony of Sinwar's release from prison in exchange for a thousand Palestinian prisoners. Remnick argues that this exchange has devalued both Palestinian and Israeli lives, discussing the impact of the Gilad Shalit kidnapping on Israeli society and the current situation in Gaza. The episode then shifts to the situation on the northern border of Israel, where Hezbollah has been attacking and the area has been depopulated. Remnick discusses the impact of the conflict on Israeli society and the potential for a wider war. He examines the role of the United States in the conflict, highlighting the pressure on Israel not to escalate the war into Lebanon. He discusses Biden's cautious approach and the potential for a shift in US-Israel relations. Remnick also discusses the perception of Iran as the ultimate enemy by Israelis, highlighting the long-standing rhetoric of Iranian leaders about the elimination of Israel. He explores the caution on both sides about escalation and the potential for a nuclear threat. The episode further explores the rise of religious nationalism in Israeli politics, criticizing Netanyahu's treatment of American partners and his cynical political maneuvering. Remnick discusses the potential for a shift towards annexation and a one-state solution, highlighting the challenges to a two-state solution. Remnick describes the visual reality of the West Bank, highlighting the architecture of isolation and oppression that has been built over decades. He discusses the impact of the settlement project on Palestinian life and the challenges to a two-state solution. He explores the Israeli right's vision for the future, which includes virtual annexation of the West Bank and a potential exodus of Palestinians into Jordan. He discusses the role of settler violence and the potential for a third intifada. Finally, Remnick discusses the changing dynamics of US-Israel relations, highlighting the shift in American support for Israel among younger generations. He argues that the US needs to be more critical of Israel's actions and that the relationship is at an inflection point.
Outlines
The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Complex Landscape
This episode of the Ezra Klein Show features an interview with David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker, about the current situation in Israel and the West Bank. The episode delves into the complexities of the conflict, examining the role of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, the rise of religious nationalism in Israeli politics, and the potential for a shift in US-Israel relations.
Yahya Sinwar: The Leader of Hamas
Remnick provides a detailed biography of Yahya Sinwar, highlighting his early life, his time in Israeli prisons, and his rise to power. He discusses Sinwar's understanding of Israeli society and his strategic use of hostage-taking, exploring the historical irony of Sinwar's release from prison in exchange for a thousand Palestinian prisoners. Remnick argues that this exchange has devalued both Palestinian and Israeli lives, discussing the impact of the Gilad Shalit kidnapping on Israeli society and the current situation in Gaza.
The Northern Border and Hezbollah
The episode then shifts to the situation on the northern border of Israel, where Hezbollah has been attacking and the area has been depopulated. Remnick discusses the impact of the conflict on Israeli society and the potential for a wider war. He examines the role of the United States in the conflict, highlighting the pressure on Israel not to escalate the war into Lebanon. He discusses Biden's cautious approach and the potential for a shift in US-Israel relations.
The Threat of Iran and Nuclear Concerns
Remnick also discusses the perception of Iran as the ultimate enemy by Israelis, highlighting the long-standing rhetoric of Iranian leaders about the elimination of Israel. He explores the caution on both sides about escalation and the potential for a nuclear threat.
The Rise of Religious Nationalism in Israel
The episode further explores the rise of religious nationalism in Israeli politics, criticizing Netanyahu's treatment of American partners and his cynical political maneuvering. Remnick discusses the potential for a shift towards annexation and a one-state solution, highlighting the challenges to a two-state solution.
The Architecture of Oppression in the West Bank
Remnick describes the visual reality of the West Bank, highlighting the architecture of isolation and oppression that has been built over decades. He discusses the impact of the settlement project on Palestinian life and the challenges to a two-state solution. He explores the Israeli right's vision for the future, which includes virtual annexation of the West Bank and a potential exodus of Palestinians into Jordan. He discusses the role of settler violence and the potential for a third intifada.
The Future of US-Israel Relations
Finally, Remnick discusses the changing dynamics of US-Israel relations, highlighting the shift in American support for Israel among younger generations. He argues that the US needs to be more critical of Israel's actions and that the relationship is at an inflection point.
Keywords
Yahya Sinwar
The leader of Hamas in Gaza, known for his ruthlessness and strategic use of hostage-taking. He has been a key figure in the conflict for decades, and his actions have had a significant impact on both Israeli and Palestinian society.
Religious Nationalism
A powerful current in Israeli politics that emphasizes Jewish religious identity and the importance of the land of Israel. It is often associated with the settlement movement and has gained significant influence in recent years.
Architecture of Control
The physical and political structures that have been built in the West Bank to isolate and oppress Palestinians. This includes checkpoints, settlements, and restrictions on movement and access to resources.
Two-State Solution
A proposed solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that would create two independent states, one for Israel and one for Palestine. It has been the basis of international negotiations for decades, but its viability is increasingly questioned.
One-State Solution
A proposed solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that would create a single state with equal rights for all citizens. It is often seen as a more equitable solution, but it faces significant challenges, including the potential for violence and the difficulty of achieving a consensus on governance.
Inflection Point
A moment of significant change or transition. In the context of US-Israel relations, it refers to the potential for a shift in American support for Israel, driven by generational changes and growing concerns about Israel's actions.
Q&A
Who is Yahya Sinwar and what is his role in the current conflict?
Yahya Sinwar is the leader of Hamas in Gaza. He is a highly influential figure who has been a key player in the conflict for decades. His strategic use of hostage-taking and his understanding of Israeli society have made him a formidable opponent.
What is the impact of the settlement project on Palestinian life in the West Bank?
The settlement project has created an architecture of isolation and oppression in the West Bank, restricting Palestinian movement and access to resources. It has also contributed to a sense of hopelessness and despair among Palestinians, making a two-state solution increasingly difficult.
How is the rise of religious nationalism in Israeli politics changing the dynamics of the conflict?
The rise of religious nationalism has shifted Israeli politics further to the right, increasing support for annexation and a one-state solution. This has made it more difficult to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict and has increased the potential for violence.
What are the implications of the changing dynamics of US-Israel relations for the future of the conflict?
The changing dynamics of US-Israel relations, driven by generational changes and growing concerns about Israel's actions, could lead to a more critical approach by the US towards Israel. This could put pressure on Israel to change its policies and could have a significant impact on the future of the conflict.
Show Notes
It’s been almost a year since Oct. 7. More than 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza are dead. The hostages are not all home, and it doesn’t look like there will be a cease-fire deal that brings them home anytime soon. Israeli politics is deeply divided, and the country’s international reputation is in tatters. The Palestinian Authority is weak. A war may break out in Lebanon soon. There is no vision for the day after and no theory of what comes next.
So I wanted to talk to David Remnick, the editor of The New Yorker. Remnick has been reporting from Israel for decades and has a deep familiarity and history with both the region and the politics and the people who are driving it. He first profiled Benjamin Netanyahu back in 1998. In 2013, he profiled Naftali Bennett, the politician leading Netanyahu in polls of who Israelis think is best suited to be prime minister. And he recently profiled Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza.
In this conversation, we talk about what Remnick learned profiling Netanyahu, Bennett and Sinwar, as well as where Israel’s overlapping conflicts with Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah and Iran sit after nearly a year of war. Remnick and I were both recently in Israel and the West Bank, as well as near Israel’s border with Lebanon, and we discuss our impressions from those trips.
Mentioned:
“Notes from Underground” by David Remnick
“The Party Faithful” by David Remnick
“The Outsider” by David Remnick
Book Recommendations:
Hope Against Hope by Nadezhda Mandelstam
These Truths by Jill Lepore
Cosmopolitanism by Kwame Anthony Appiah
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
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