On Children, Meaning, Media and Psychedelics
12Digest
This podcast delves into the complexities of parenting in the digital age, exploring the tension between pursuing pleasure and meaning versus achievement. Ezra Klein and Gia Tolentino discuss the phenomenon of Coco Melon, a popular children's entertainment franchise that has become a source of both fascination and frustration for parents. They argue that Coco Melon represents a new paradigm in children's entertainment, where raw attentional capture takes precedence over traditional notions of entertainment and education. The podcast also examines the anxieties surrounding screen time and its potential impact on children's development, discussing the fear that children's capacity for deep thought and engagement with the world will be blunted by excessive screen use. Klein and Tolentino explore the connection between children's brains and the effects of psychedelics, suggesting that both states of mind are characterized by a heightened sense of openness and a lack of filtering. They argue that this openness may be valuable for children, and that we should consider the importance of beauty and pleasure in children's entertainment, rather than solely focusing on educational value. The podcast also discusses the pervasive nature of digital culture and its impact on both children and adults, exploring the difficulty of resisting the pull of screens and the pressure to conform to a culture of optimization and achievement, even when we recognize the potential downsides. Klein and Tolentino reflect on the role of friction in real-world experiences and how it contributes to meaningful pleasure. They argue that the frictionless nature of digital experiences, while seemingly convenient, can ultimately lead to a loss of depth and meaning. Tolentino shares her experience with AI relationship apps and how, despite their ability to mimic human interaction, they ultimately lack the meaning and depth of real-world relationships. She argues that the friction and unpredictability of human connection are essential for meaningful pleasure. Finally, Klein and Tolentino discuss the role of children as a source of friction in a world that increasingly values frictionlessness. They argue that this friction can be both challenging and liberating, and that surrendering to the demands of parenthood can be a path to greater freedom and joy.
Outlines
The Value of Pleasure in Parenting and the Rise of Digital Culture
This episode explores the tension between pursuing pleasure and meaning versus pursuing achievement in the context of parenting. It examines the impact of digital culture and screen time on children's development, particularly the phenomenon of Coco Melon and its focus on attentional capture.
The Fear of Screen Time and the Loss of Self-Confidence
The episode delves into the anxieties surrounding screen time and its potential impact on children's development. It discusses the fear that children's capacity for deep thought and engagement with the world will be blunted by excessive screen use, and the difficulty of making judgments about what constitutes "good" or "bad" media in a world where everything is measured by its educational value.
The Psychedelic Brain and the Value of Beauty
This segment explores the connection between children's brains and the effects of psychedelics, suggesting that both states of mind are characterized by a heightened sense of openness and a lack of filtering. It argues that this openness may be valuable for children, and that we should consider the importance of beauty and pleasure in children's entertainment, rather than solely focusing on educational value.
The Contagious Nature of Digital Culture and the Importance of Friction
This section discusses the pervasive nature of digital culture and its impact on both children and adults. It explores the difficulty of resisting the pull of screens and the pressure to conform to a culture of optimization and achievement, even when we recognize the potential downsides. It also reflects on the role of friction in real-world experiences and how it contributes to meaningful pleasure.
The Limits of AI and the Value of Human Connection
This segment explores the limitations of AI in replicating the complexity and meaning of human connection. It argues that the friction and unpredictability of real-world relationships are essential for genuine intimacy and connection.
Children as a Source of Friction and the Importance of Surrender
This section discusses the role of children as a source of friction in a world that increasingly values frictionlessness. It argues that this friction can be both challenging and liberating, and that surrendering to the demands of parenthood can be a path to greater freedom and joy.
Keywords
Attentional Capture
The act of grabbing and holding someone's attention, often through techniques that exploit psychological vulnerabilities or exploit the desire for instant gratification.
Frictionless Experience
An experience that is designed to be smooth, effortless, and devoid of any obstacles or challenges. This can be achieved through technology, automation, or other means.
Meaningful Pleasure
A type of pleasure that is not merely hedonistic but is connected to a sense of purpose, meaning, and connection. It often involves effort, challenge, and a sense of growth.
Parental Distress
A state of emotional and psychological strain experienced by parents, often as a result of the challenges and demands of raising children. This distress can manifest in a variety of ways, including anxiety, depression, and feelings of inadequacy.
Optimization Culture
A cultural phenomenon that emphasizes efficiency, productivity, and the pursuit of measurable outcomes. This culture often leads to a focus on quantifiable metrics and a devaluation of subjective experiences.
Friction
A force that resists motion or change. In the context of this podcast, friction refers to the challenges, obstacles, and uncertainties that are inherent in real-world experiences.
Surrender
The act of relinquishing control and accepting the present moment without resistance. In the context of parenting, surrender can involve letting go of the need to control every aspect of a child's experience and embracing the unpredictability of life.
Q&A
What is the main argument that Gia Tolentino makes about Coco Melon?
Tolentino argues that Coco Melon represents a new paradigm in children's entertainment, where raw attentional capture takes precedence over traditional notions of entertainment and education. She believes that Coco Melon's success is due to its ability to exploit children's short attention spans and their susceptibility to repetitive, visually stimulating content.
What is Ezra Klein's main concern about screen time and its impact on children?
Klein is concerned that excessive screen time will blunt children's capacity for deep thought and engagement with the world. He worries that children will become accustomed to a hyper-stimulating environment that makes it difficult to focus and appreciate the nuances of real-world experiences.
How does Gia Tolentino connect the experience of psychedelics to the development of children's brains?
Tolentino suggests that children's brains are similar to the brains of adults on psychedelics in that they are more disorganized and less able to filter out sensory information. She believes that this openness may be valuable for children, allowing them to experience the world in a more unfiltered and immersive way.
What is the main argument that Klein and Tolentino make about the importance of friction in real-world experiences?
Klein and Tolentino argue that friction, or the challenges and obstacles that are inherent in real-world experiences, is essential for meaningful pleasure. They believe that the frictionless nature of digital experiences, while seemingly convenient, can ultimately lead to a loss of depth and meaning.
What is the main takeaway from the discussion about AI relationship apps?
Tolentino's experience with AI relationship apps highlights the limitations of technology in replicating the complexity and meaning of human connection. She argues that the friction and unpredictability of real-world relationships are essential for genuine intimacy and connection.
What is the main argument that Klein and Tolentino make about the role of children in a world that increasingly values frictionlessness?
Klein and Tolentino argue that children can be seen as a source of friction in a world that increasingly values frictionlessness. They believe that this friction can be both challenging and liberating, and that surrendering to the demands of parenthood can be a path to greater freedom and joy.
Show Notes
I feel that there’s something important missing in our debate over screen time and kids — and even screen time and adults. In the realm of kids and teenagers, there’s so much focus on what studies show or don’t show: How does screen time affect school grades and behavior? Does it carry an increased risk of anxiety or depression?
And while the debate over those questions rages on, a feeling has kept nagging me. What if the problem with screen time isn’t something we can measure?
In June, Jia Tolentino published a great piece in The New Yorker about the blockbuster children’s YouTube channel CoComelon, which seemed as if it was wrestling with the same question. So I invited her on the show, and our conversation ended up going places I never expected. Among other things, we talk about how the decision to have kids relates to doing psychedelics, what kinds of pleasure to seek if you want a good life and how much the debate over screen time and kids might just be adults projecting our own discomfort with our own screen time.
We recorded this episode a few days before the Trump-Biden debate — and before Donald Trump chose JD Vance as his running mate. We then got so swept up in politics coverage we never got a chance to air it. But I am so excited to finally get this one out into the world.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
“How CoComelon Captures Our Children’s Attention” by Jia Tolentino
“Can Motherhood Be a Mode of Rebellion?” by Jia Tolentino
How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell
Book Recommendations:
Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
In Ascension by Martin MacInnes
When We Cease to Understand the World by Benjamin Labatut
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Jeff Geld, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
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