Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center and at Dallas Theological Seminary, and we thank you so much for being with us today. Today, our topic is interesting because it's about pastoring pastors. So essentially, we're asking and hopefully addressing a little bit the question of who ministers to ministers. We're joined by two esteemed guests. One of them is Dr. Roger Sharp. He is a shepherd at Standing Stone Ministry and he's also adjunct professor at Houston Christian University. So, Roger, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Roger Sharp: 

Thanks, Kasey. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We've had your wife Mary Jo many times, and so it was about time that we were able to welcome you here. So, we also have Dr. Robert Duckworth. He's the director of counseling services here at DTS. You've also been on the show, so thanks for being back with us. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Glad to be back. 

Kasey Olander: 

Grateful for that. I'm interested to talk to you guys about this because I have a few statistics that I'm just going to read for us. Barna Group does a lot of research. They do offer a ton of statistics, but they especially do some reporting about the state of pastors. So in 2021, Barna found that almost 4 in 10 pastors had considered quitting full-time ministry in the past year, and this number rose in 2022. Obviously, the COVID-19 pandemic played a part in that, but that doesn't negate the sentiment. And it's interesting that instead of tapering off after 2021, it actually rose in '22. 

They called this a burnout epidemic, and it's now improved. Pastors are growing in confidence. But at the same time, a more recent study from the summer of 2025, Barna said it this way. They stated that, "Physical, emotional, and mental health among pastors is lower than the general population, and notably behind practicing Christians. This is especially alarming since a leader's wholeness is intertwined with their ministry for better or for worse. And pastors with diminished wellbeing may have a higher risk of burnout. Perhaps most concerning is that pastors may be misidentifying their greatest needs. So Barna has identified this, but despite scoring lowest in relationships and wellbeing, pastors are most likely to say that they need help with leadership development, spiritual growth, and finances, areas where they already demonstrate relative strength." 

So this is really fascinating and relevant to us as Christians because we are either serving in a ministry capacity or we have a pastor that we're sitting under in our local church body that we're a part of. So I just want to open the floor for you guys sort of by way of continued introduction, but to talk about what is your experience with this area? Roger, we'll start with you, but how did you get thinking about this area? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, it's been 30 years of full-time ministry on staff at churches in Oklahoma, Texas, and Oregon now. And sitting in that second chair for most of those churches, I felt kind of my role was to support the pastor, help the pastor as best I could. And I kept finding that there was conflict on staff, whether it was from me to the lead pastor or other pastors, but there's always internal conflict. And I always wondered why that was there. Looking back at the very first ministry I was a part of, my first pastor that kind of mentored me, took me into hospitals, showed me how to do ministry, he ended up in jail. And as I look back on those years, I'm like, "What in the world went wrong with him?" He actually died in jail a couple of years ago, but he was there for some nefarious reasons. 

The second pastor I worked with, no longer in ministry. There was some infidelity there on his part while I was on staff that I didn't know about. So I saw the results of that with his two sons, which were in my youth ministry that are really struggling with the church today. So those were the two that just kind of made me go, "What is going on in the church?" But the biggest one for me was when Robbie Zachariah's stuff came out And that just impacted me because I thought someone of his stature that could fall that quickly, any of us are susceptible to the problems that come with not taking care of our souls. So that's introduced to the world of pastoral care. There's something that was wrong and I needed to be a part of that solution. 

Kasey Olander: 

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you shared those examples. So thank you for that. And you're talking about some big names, some recognizable figures in addition to people in your own personal life. That is so tragic. And I think a lot of us have maybe not that exact same experience, but if not that, then very similar experiences where we are seeing leaders fall and being hurt and wounded by that and just noticing, "Hey, what can we do about this? " And yeah, you talked about being part of the solution. So thanks for that, Roger. 

What about you, Robert? 

Robert Duckworth: 

I would agree with Roger in terms of being a part of the solution. That was probably my onboarding of becoming the director of counseling services at Dallas Seminary. 

There are some that joke about it. I was reluctant to take the role here and it was nothing about the seminary, nothing about the role, was grateful for the opportunity. I was just so enamored with the work that I was doing in the juvenile justice system and working in criminal justice. And that was kind of my world. I thought I would probably even retire from that. And that was the thing that I think held me up from maybe taking this role when the opportunity first came up. Yet what really pushed me over the edge, being a part, as Roger said, of the solution, when the Lord opened up my ears and opened up my eyes to see that I would have an opportunity to pour into, serve, care for the future pastors, missionaries, ministers, counselors, whomever, particularly pastors that would go out and preach and advance the gospel, I knew that I was going to be in a multiplier effect and I was just thrilled with the opportunity. 

And that was really what pushed me over the edge to say, "I can really make an impact for the kingdom." I get to do that every day. As of today, I do that. I get to serve future pastors. Those that are caring for flocks, caring for people on the mission field, I have the opportunity to do that and I'm excited about it. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. You guys are highlighting two different angles of this same kind of issue. Yeah. Roger, you're talking about the fallout that can happen, the devastation, the tragic things that are happening when people don't care for their own souls. And you're talking about, okay, what if we come on the preventative side of that? People who are enrolled at DTS or working here are looking towards future pastoral ministries and things of that nature. But what can we unearth now and bring to light instead of waiting until like 10, 15 years down the road when either they're burned out or suffer any kind of major consequences? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Exactly. If we don't do something on the front end, I've said this before, if we don't do something on the front end preventative, they'll embarrass us on the back end and they'll embarrass more so the church. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, let's dig into that a little bit. Why do we think that this is such an issue? Because like I said, so many of us, like if we don't know someone personally, I've at least heard of these stories of great leaders that were doing awesome things and then had this other secret life, had this other secret sin. And why do we think that this is such a frequent, tragic occurrence? Roger, do you have thoughts? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, most of my ministry was in Southern Baptist churches, so I can speak from that perspective. When I was on staff, I noticed that lead pastors that I worked with and other pastors didn't really have anyone that they could talk with, whether it be a spiritual friend or a spiritual mentor or other pastors. And I think the reason for that, especially in evangelical circles is if a pastor divulges sin patterns or thoughts or whatever that might come back to the congregation or to the board, to the elders or the deacons or whatever governing body might be there, which might put him on the hot seat and he might lose his job. So he can't talk to staff, of course. He can't talk to the congregation members. He can't talk to other pastors in the same city. So he really learns, as I did, to hide all those sin patterns and other things that come to the surface for fear of losing job. So we isolate ourselves thinking that we're protecting ourselves and our families. It's just kind of a vicious circle. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, absolutely. The consequences, it feels so monumental like, okay, if I confess this sin, then there's tons of ramifications in a different way than maybe an accountant doesn't lose their job. If they have this other secret struggle on this side, they're totally interconnected in a different way for pastors. Yeah. What are your thoughts, Robert? 

Robert Duckworth: 

They lack what's called… And Dr. Eric Sullivan, he had done an article. They co-authored an article with some other folks from Regent University, I think a few years ago that dealt with one of the constructs they looked at was self-disclosure flexibility. How much flexibility does the pastor have in expressing problems or issues where you feel like you're canceled, you're out i