The Messy Modern Music Business, According to Larry Jackson
Update: 2024-12-13
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An interview with the record label veteran and Gamma founder, who has worked closely with Whitney Houston, Drake, Chief Keef and Lana Del Rey.Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything
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from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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00:00:00
What does beauty have to do with sports, or advanced technology, or the economy?
00:00:06
I am Isabella Rosillini, and in each episode of "This Is Not A Beauty Podcast," I uncover stories that explain beauty's fascinating and often hidden role in modern life.
00:00:19
Listen to "This Is Not A Beauty Podcast" now on your favorite podcast platform, brought to you by L'Oreal Group.
00:00:31
One of the New York Times' pop cast, your John X and Joe X of music, news, and criticism.
00:00:37
I'm John Garamonka, a critic in the New York Times.
00:00:39
I'm Joe Cuscarelli, a reporter at the New York Times.
00:00:42
And I'm Larry Jackson, founder and CEO of Gamma.
00:00:45
The Swami is here!
00:00:46
If you are not familiar with Larry Jackson from the lyrics of Drake and Kanye West, we'll do a quick rundown.
00:00:53
Larry, founder and CEO of Gamma, as he said, this is a futuristic music and content company.
00:01:00
We're going to talk about that.
00:01:01
In business with soup dog, rickross, usher, sexy red, and many more.
00:01:06
Larry was a protégé, is it fair to say, of both Clive Davis and Jimmy Iveyne.
00:01:11
No one calls himself that, but if you were like climbing out and so be it, sure.
00:01:16
He previously worked with Jimmy at Beats, then at Apple Music, but also in Interscope as well.
00:01:22
We'll get there.
00:01:23
I think you guys helped launch the streaming service, Apple Music, you're behind some of those early marketing wins, releasing exclusives from Drake, Chancellor Rapper,
00:01:34
Frank Goshen, remember Blonde and Endless?
00:01:38
I was a real big time, period of limbo this time.
00:01:41
That might have been probably when we got to know each other, was me saying, "When's the album coming?
00:01:46
When's the album coming?"
00:01:47
Yes, yes, yes.
00:01:48
Before that, before streaming, Larry was at Interscope Records, he had a hand in signing everyone from Chief Keith to Lana Del Rey.
00:01:55
- Yeah.
00:01:55
- We're gonna talk about that.
00:01:57
And you're here to help us make sense of the mess of the modern music business.
00:02:02
We're gonna touch on a few of the biggest storylines of the year.
00:02:05
- Gladly.
00:02:05
- Drake and Kendrick.
00:02:07
- Yeah.
00:02:07
- This pesky petition.
00:02:09
- Petition.
00:02:10
- Me.
00:02:10
- Maybe lawsuit.
00:02:11
- Re-future lawsuit.
00:02:12
- Re-future.
00:02:12
- Great lawsuit.
00:02:12
- Great lawsuit.
00:02:13
- Universe of music.
00:02:14
The alleged dearth of new rap stars.
00:02:17
Grammys, country music.
00:02:19
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:19
- You'll see, Larry, thank you for being here.
00:02:22
Where do you wanna start?
00:02:23
- I'd like to start by just saying that I'm, it's my first time visiting the New York Times building.
00:02:28
So I'm kind of nervous.
00:02:29
- I was too.
00:02:30
- Yeah.
00:02:31
- Really true.
00:02:31
- You're the first time visiting here.
00:02:33
(laughing)
00:02:34
- What the actual hell?
00:02:36
- Mm-hmm.
00:02:37
- Okay.
00:02:37
- This is a special day for the three of us.
00:02:40
- This is a elaborate stamp.
00:02:41
- They love us here.
00:02:42
- No, but I, you know, I have such deep respect for you both.
00:02:47
And I don't say that with any ounce of flattery, how much I f*** with both of you.
00:02:52
We'll take it.
00:02:52
- We appreciate it.
00:02:53
- Yeah.
00:02:53
- We'll take you flat 100%.
00:02:54
- 100%.
00:02:55
- There was flattery.
00:02:55
We'll take it.
00:02:56
- Yeah.
00:02:57
- And, you know, happy 10 year anniversary here, by the way.
00:03:00
- Oh, thank you.
00:03:01
- Of course.
00:03:01
- That wow, he got, that's wow.
00:03:03
- It was in the newsletter.
00:03:04
- It was, does he get to, Larry, do you get the newsletter?
00:03:07
- I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a well-read fellow.
00:03:10
- I'm believable.
00:03:11
- I'm a well-read fellow.
00:03:12
- You know, John noticed this.
00:03:13
They used my full government.
00:03:15
It's unbelievable.
00:03:17
I've known Joe for 17 years.
00:03:21
- Wow.
00:03:22
- 18 years, I did not know his middle name until three days ago, which I found out on the way up is Lawrence, which also happens to be my first name.
00:03:29
- Yes.
00:03:30
- So.
00:03:31
- Unbelievable.
00:03:31
- We are eternally bonded.
00:03:33
- I did, I did tell Joe, if I had 100 guesses, I would not have guessed Lawrence.
00:03:39
- I wouldn't have guessed that either.
00:03:40
- That's what I'm saying.
00:03:41
Like it's just, it's very strange.
00:03:43
I'm sitting with it.
00:03:44
It's gonna take a while to, okay.
00:03:47
Quick announcement.
00:03:48
You may have heard on last week's episode, but this coming Sunday, December 15th, pop cast, live taping, biggest music moments of the year, live mailbag, me,
00:03:58
Joe, SOBs, free.
00:04:01
- Free with RSVP, tinyurl.com/popcastlive, tap in, bring a friend, bring a question, help bring a gift.
00:04:09
It's the holiday season.
00:04:10
- Yeah.
00:04:11
- Happy Christmas to you.
00:04:12
- Larry, you wanna send some underlings to come and hang out with us?
00:04:15
- What day is this?
00:04:16
- December 15th.
00:04:16
- December 15th.
00:04:17
- December 15th.
00:04:18
- 6 to 9.
00:04:18
- I'll send some spies.
00:04:19
- That's, that's, that's actually what all you label should, frankly, if you see a guy looks like Usher in the background, Usher.
00:04:26
(laughing)
00:04:28
- Larry, the music business is a mess right now.
00:04:33
- Is it in disarray?
00:04:35
- Yeah, like just a pure that way.
00:04:36
- I wrote a piece about we're an interesting moment in pop, stars with like big stars, have big albums, but maybe not big hits.
00:04:44
A lot of the big hits come from people that like, if they were sitting in the other room, you might not know who they are.
00:04:49
It's an interesting moment.
00:04:50
- Yeah.
00:04:51
- It feels decentralized, scattered, and I don't know if we're in a full transition moment, but it does feel that what we're living through now is different even from three,
00:05:02
four, five years ago.
00:05:03
- Oh, very much so, yeah.
00:05:04
- Can you talk us through why that might be happening?
00:05:07
- I don't know why my mind just randomly traveled back to a trip to Venice that I took.
00:05:14
And I remember, I don't know if I've ever been there, but it's an amazing place to visit.
00:05:19
- I've been there a couple of times, and I always love to visit the island of Barano, and it's maybe like a 30 minute taxi boat ride away from Venice itself,
00:05:32
but it's a lovely place, and I've been there a couple of times, and I've always been blown away by the artist's ship, the ancient art of glass blowing.
00:05:43
And when you see the craftsmanship with respect to how they do this thing that they didn't go to school for,
00:05:53
it was taught to them.
00:05:54
It was passed down generation to generation, and it's beautiful to see, you know, the fire, the glass, the thing that they blow into the sea, you know what I mean?
00:06:05
And I'm using it, and I came to mind and I'm bringing it up, but I guess maybe seemingly randomly, but not so randomly because it reminds me of the ancient art of A&R.
00:06:19
- There we go.
00:06:20
I was wondering where you were gonna land.
00:06:22
- What is A&R?
00:06:23
- Yeah, like honestly, okay, so just for context, I think a lot of our listeners and viewers are younger than we are, not that we're not young,
00:06:34
'cause like we're young, let's not get it twisted.
00:06:35
- You're very young, that's an eye-opensite, but they're younger than we are.
00:06:39
And so when you say A&R, and you say the art of A&R, I know what you're referring to, 'cause I watched it in my OGs and my elders, I watched that,
00:06:49
and I saw it as I came up as a journalist.
00:06:52
But I think if you're say under 30.
00:06:54
- Yeah.
00:06:55
- Even if you do A&R, by the way.
00:06:56
- Even if you do, that's a bar for a lot of y'all.
00:07:01
But can you explain that artisanal thing that you just refer to A&R as?
00:07:07
What was it, and how has it been essentially bastardized and desecrated?
00:07:13
- Or are there still people blowing glass, I guess, in respect to your metaphor?
00:07:18
- Exactly, exactly.
00:07:19
Or did you miss a generation of that artisanship being passed down, and the whole kind of like, thing is broke, the chain is broken?
00:07:28
- When you miss a generation of something, of knowledge being bequeathed, you start to see it, it's impact, and you think that's what happened is,
00:07:38
there's a break in the chain.
00:07:40
- Yeah, I mean, I think that-- - We'll start at the beginning.
00:07:47
- You know what?
00:07:48
- There's no reason for me to keep the gloves on today.
00:07:51
- No, this is what we're here for.
00:07:53
- So what we're here for?
00:07:55
- Yeah, I think, I mean, I fortunately had the blessing to learn the art of A&R, and let me start with the actual acronym, artist and repertoire,
00:08:06
so get that out of the way, but yeah, I mean, I have the blessing and the opportunity to learn from Clive Davis, who, and Jimmy Iveen,
00:08:17
who both of whom had different styles of it, left brain, right brain, kind of style, different styles of it in that particular way, but there's various kinds of it.
00:08:26
I mean, there's the Jerry Wexler, I'm an artigan style of, you know, Jerry Wexler going in the studio and writing the records with Aretha and producing the records.
00:08:36
There's the Quincy style of actually being able to read a music sheet, being able to arrange a song, being able to orchestrate what session player come in.
00:08:46
- Get the right people in the room.
00:08:47
- Get the guy from Toto.
00:08:48
I'm gonna get Greg Phillin gains.
00:08:51
You know, I like the guy-- - Everybody Google Greg Phillin gains why you're here.
00:08:55
- I'm gonna get Rod Temperton from Heat Wave, but I'm gonna put this incredible crew together because I know that they can play the best, give me the best rhythm and get the best out of Michael and co-write with Michael in the best way.
00:09:08
Or there's a side of it with Clive Davis of like, "Well, Whitney is in the Vodville tradition."
00:09:13
I'm really getting the history.
00:09:15
- Going in.
00:09:16
- In the Vodville tradition of the 1920s and 1930s, she is an amazing vocalist in vehicle for these songs, but not the best writer.
00:09:25
So how do I find the best material for this artist who's not a hit songwriter?
00:09:32
And pair that as the voice.
00:09:34
- But has the voice of a generation and pair that material with this voice of a generation.
00:09:40
And then there's the other side of it with Jimmy, who is this swashbuckling mad scientist, who somehow knew that Pharrell and Gwen would go together and then that would be Hall of Bat Girl or that Nellie Frattato and Templin would go together or to find someone like me,
00:09:59
me specifically, and hire me and just say, "Do whatever you want to do."
00:10:04
And gave me the courage of my conviction to say, "Okay, I'm going to sign Lana Del Rey."
00:10:10
And even down to, by the way, which we'll get to in a moment.
00:10:13
The line, 'cause I definitely want to get into some aspects of Lana Del Rey as well, who from my perspective, the artist that I was able to sign from an A&R perspective while I was in Interscope, I don't know how I was blessed with the opportunity to sign Lana Del Rey and Chief Keith,
00:10:28
but like two generational artists that created a cultural reset that we're still living in the wake of.
00:10:34
But Jimmy's opportunity, Jimmy, Jimmy rather giving me the opportunity to be able to do that is also a form of A&R producing the producer.
00:10:45
- So let me ask this question, because I'm wondering, we're talking about, so when you say artists in repertoire, just to be totally clear.
00:10:51
That's an artist and the songs they're going to perform.
00:10:54
- The repertoire, yes.
00:10:56
- And what the A&R representative historically has done is, you know, I don't know if handhold is the right word, but it's orchestrating for different artists, and my function differently.
00:11:07
But it implies that there's a person who works at the label, who has a vision that the artist also buys into, more often than not or less often than not, but the artist acknowledges,
00:11:18
I want to, this person can help me be the best version of myself.
00:11:22
- Yeah.
00:11:23
- Those positions at labels, especially as artists are becoming more independent, internet focused, social media focused, they get hot before they're on a label.
00:11:33
There's the breakdown.
00:11:34
When did the breakdown start in your estimation?
00:11:38
And what has happened as a result?
00:11:40
- I just happen to have the good fortune of being able to work for two of the people who are on the Mount Rushmore of the business, who were at a bequeathing stage of their lives to be able to pass along that knowledge to me.
00:11:54
But a lot of the executives who are doing the position now necessarily haven't been afforded the opportunity to work with such legends to have that knowledge bequeath.
00:12:07
So therefore, like, what is kind of the depth of your understanding of what it is?
00:12:11
It's not saying, okay, this thing is at like 39,000 creates today on TikTok and it was at 2000 yesterday and I'm going to sign it and that's not a vision.
00:12:20
That's like, you're a truffle hound.
00:12:22
- Yeah.
00:12:23
- No, no, real talk.
00:12:24
- You're chasing.
00:12:25
- Yeah.
00:12:25
- You're a truffle hound.
00:12:27
So, you know, truffle hounds don't have vision.
00:12:30
They are walked by someone who is nose and alba - Some well dressed Italian man.
00:12:37
- Yeah, some well dressed Italian man that knows that, okay, there's truffles in them hills.
00:12:42
And let's go, but the dogs don't have the vision.
00:12:44
They're just in pursuit.
00:12:46
And from that perspective, I think unfortunately, there's been kind of a generational gap of like this art that's been passed down.
00:12:54
So unfortunately, the visionaries and the artist's development has kind of fallen by the wayside, unfortunately, because of that.
00:13:01
And I think that's a bit of a tragedy, candidly.
00:13:03
But, you know, all I can do is be a horse with blinders on and focus on my lane, you know.
00:13:10
- Well, use, I mean, whether you want to use Lana or chief key for whoever it is, someone from, maybe your inner scope day is like, yeah.
00:13:17
Talk us through what kind of ANR you were via what happened with one of those artists.
00:13:23
- Okay, I'll give you the two.
00:13:24
Those are two really good examples.
00:13:26
Two great examples actually to expound on.
00:13:29
With chief Keith, it wasn't just a vision.
00:13:35
It was, it's the first time I've ever told the story, but it was getting a call from a friend of mine who was in touch with the FBI, who told me that this kid was on a watch list,
00:13:48
who then also subsequently called me back and told me that there's a $50,000 hit out on this kid and you may want to do something about it.
00:13:57
And that's not a job of like, you know, from a traditional vocational perspective of an ANR.
00:14:05
- That was an ANR class.
00:14:06
- Is this before the contract assigned or after?
00:14:09
- After.
00:14:09
After.
00:14:10
He got into some trouble.
00:14:13
I personally wrote a letter to the judge.
00:14:15
My letter was, was effective and persuasive in Captain Montagel.
00:14:19
I was able to, at that point, all this coincided with a very small period of time, letter to the judge, his potential incarceration.
00:14:26
- And to be clear, he was 16, 17 years old at this point.
00:14:30
- Yeah, yeah.
00:14:31
So I kind of stepped up as, as in a father figure role.
00:14:35
So it's so much deeper than, yeah, let me sign this guy as everybody wants him and has a bidding war and a single and the album and the video,
00:14:45
like, no, bro.
00:14:47
No, this was so much deeper in terms of a vision for not just the music, for his life.
00:14:54
- Yeah.
00:14:57
- And we're close to this day, still because of that.
00:15:00
And my greatest achievement with respect to signing him and finally, rich to me, which came out, I think in 2012, really established drill,
00:15:12
established, what music is today for rap.
00:15:15
I'm sure you both would agree.
00:15:17
And what we did with "Findly Rich" and I went in and picked the songs for the album.
00:15:20
I came up with the intro, came up with the interlude.
00:15:22
I mixed the album with "Christianie".
00:15:24
I sequenced the album, blah, blah, blah.
00:15:27
'Cause the most important thing to me is that he's still alive.
00:15:31
- And not in prison.
00:15:34
- And not in prison.
00:15:35
- I'm not facing prison, as far as we know.
00:15:37
- And that, and that, to me, is A&R.
00:15:42
That to me is A&R.
00:15:44
That's like giving a f***.
00:15:45
So that's one version of it.
00:15:47
- Before we move on for "Chief Keep" I just have to ask.
00:15:49
'Cause there's a story that I feel like has now become, almost, I don't know if it's apocryphal, but it's part of the "Chief Keep" legend in the sort of sliding doors moment of what his career might have become.
00:15:59
And that's around the potential video for "Haping Sober", which was the big song with "Fifty Cent", which was supposed to be this big torch-passing moment.
00:16:08
One of my favorite songs probably of the century.
00:16:11
- Yeah, mine too, but what?
00:16:12
- If not of all time, like just an amazing song.
00:16:15
- Amazing.
00:16:16
- And I think this has been told in various forms over the years, but as far as I remember it, there was supposed to be a big budget video.
00:16:23
"Fifty" was supposed to be in it.
00:16:24
It was supposed to help launch this album.
00:16:26
- Yeah, yeah.
00:16:27
- "Chief" never showed up.
00:16:28
"Chief" or false?
00:16:30
- True.
00:16:31
- And there's so many stories that I'm editing myself, but one of the great stories of our time of working together is Winnie did "Lala Paloza".
00:16:39
- Okay.
00:16:40
- And this story, I'll tell you, it failed to happen that day.
00:16:42
But, you know, I'm also the executive vice president of the company and I'm trying to like do hand-to-hand copy.
00:16:49
I can't do everything I can do.
00:16:52
I can exhaust myself and do as much as I can, which I did.
00:16:54
With "Lala Paloza", I was afraid that the same thing wouldn't happen.
00:16:59
- Yeah, I was afraid the same thing, excuse me, would happen.
00:17:01
- That he just wouldn't show up.
00:17:02
- He just wouldn't show up.
00:17:04
So, I hung out with him the night before and I realized where the night was progressing that oh, he's not gonna get up early tomorrow for this one o'clock set in "Lala Paloza" and this is a really big deal.
00:17:18
So.
00:17:19
- If they're in Chicago, I assume.
00:17:20
- We're in Chicago.
00:17:21
I'm hanging out with him.
00:17:22
It's like, you know, I don't know, 11 pm at this point and I'm seeing the writing on the wall and I do something on the fly that was pretty clever, I think, and I booked a two-bedroom suite at the peninsula downtown of Chicago.
00:17:35
As you know, "Lala Paloza" is very close to that right now.
00:17:37
- Right, it's not, you know, it's five minutes, 10 minutes.
00:17:41
I booked a two-bedroom suite and I was in one room and he and his lady friend were in another room and there was an adjoining door and, you know,
00:17:51
he was, he was hype that he was at the peninsula, you know what I mean?
00:17:55
- Sure, sure.
00:17:56
- Yeah, that's the hotel in Chicago, you know?
00:17:58
So it was a good plan because what I did, is I had access to the room.
00:18:06
So rip back the sheets.
00:18:08
It's time to get up.
00:18:10
- Wake up hall.
00:18:10
- Wake up hall.
00:18:11
Personally, I'm already just, - Yup.
00:18:13
- Let's go.
00:18:14
- You've got an hour to be downstairs.
00:18:16
I didn't do that in this instance.
00:18:19
I thought somebody else had the ball.
00:18:21
- In the heat being sober.
00:18:22
- In the heat being sober.
00:18:23
- Exactly, yeah.
00:18:23
- So he didn't show up.
00:18:24
So I'm calling him for six, seven hours.
00:18:28
I got 50 cent and E for Vera, the director and was cleaf in the desert and this was like, you know, this was the same thing.
00:18:37
- For real?
00:18:37
- Yeah, yeah.
00:18:37
- Yeah.
00:18:37
- This was the same thing.
00:18:38
- 'Cause there's still footage.
00:18:39
- I know, I feel like I've seen that.
00:18:41
- I feel like I've seen it.
00:18:41
- I feel like I've seen it.
00:18:42
- Yeah.
00:18:42
- So what, what did 50 say?
00:18:45
- I mean, they were fit to be tied, man.
00:18:47
And I understood and I was fit to be tied even more than they were.
00:18:50
I just was like, this was like, this that moment to me felt like the tipping point.
00:18:56
- Yeah.
00:18:57
- You know?
00:18:58
It felt like, it felt like it, not felt like it was what like the get it sexy video was gonna be, you know?
00:19:07
The get it sexy video, with Drake and, you know, what we had early this year was sexy red.
00:19:11
It was that kind of moment.
00:19:12
- Okay, it's interesting.
00:19:15
You said A and R in this, I mean, in many cases, but in this case, specifically, it's giving a (beep)
00:19:21
- Yeah.
00:19:22
- What do you do when your vision for the artist doesn't align with their vision for themselves?
00:19:31
And that can mean a couple different things.
00:19:32
It could be a creative difference.
00:19:34
Or it could just simply be, you want them to show up and they don't want to show up.
00:19:39
- And I do think, which is the case that day.
00:19:41
- In the chief, example, like, as I say, this sliding doors moment, maybe it's the correct decision where instead of becoming 50 cent, this set him on a path where he was allowed to be an independent artist,
00:19:52
making all of his own creative decisions, and maybe he was never meant to be.
00:19:56
- And becoming a frapper almost.
00:19:58
- Yeah, but like, how do you navigate artists, especially in their earliest years?
00:20:04
When you may see, look, you've been around a long time, you see the whole playing field, they may not.
00:20:10
- Yeah, and that was certainly an instance of such.
00:20:12
You get frustrated?
00:20:16
- No, because, I do, in the moment, because you want to try to correct, course correct, excuse me, but none of us are God.
00:20:29
And this is, you can't approach every situation without hubris at all.
00:20:35
So you just have to realize that as a person who does give a fuck, that you've put your best foot forward that day and all the other consecutive days before.
00:20:45
- So how many times did you keep Lana Del Rey at a person?
00:20:47
(laughs)
00:20:49
- Lizzie.
00:20:50
- Lizzie.
00:20:51
- Lizzie Grant.
00:20:51
- Lizzie Grant, man, no times, man.
00:20:54
- I'm actually, no, she, (laughs)
00:20:57
- No, she's awesome.
00:21:01
- Yeah, walk us through like how I assume that took a different kind of A&R than a 17 year old rapper from Chicago.
00:21:08
- Yeah, I mean, 100%.
00:21:10
But similar in many ways, actually, in the sense that it was about life.
00:21:18
And it was about an ebb and flow, and there were many peaks and many valleys.
00:21:24
And when I first signed her, it was brought to me by John Eman who worked for me at the time.
00:21:34
He, and it actually works for me now again, a gamma.
00:21:38
He, he came to me and it was right after we got fired from Sony.
00:21:43
And he said that he had brought in an artist and they passed on this artist while I was out of town.
00:21:48
And he was a junior A&R scout for me at the time at RCA Music Group.
00:21:53
And I said, I'd love to hear it, you know, 'cause he was still so enthusiastic about it and relentless about it.
00:21:59
And he played me a demo of a young lady who had this song called "Diet Mountain Dew."
00:22:04
And I loved it.
00:22:05
And I said, man, I would absolutely love to meet her when we get to L.A.
00:22:10
and we started an interscope.
00:22:12
'Cause it was a couple days where we started officially an interscope when he played me the music.
00:22:17
And I meet her maybe like two months after we've moved L.A., and I remember the meeting like it was yesterday.
00:22:25
She came in and totally looked like she just walked off the album cover.
00:22:30
Already done up.
00:22:32
And it was a great meeting.
00:22:36
She didn't say anything in the meeting.
00:22:37
So I didn't, you know, who knows?
00:22:39
You know what I mean?
00:22:40
Everything has gotten.
00:22:41
Millie Vanilli potential.
00:22:43
- You know, pure conversation.
00:22:44
- Pure conversation, no music.
00:22:45
- Yeah.
00:22:46
And I was so enthralled by her that I was like, I don't even know that you and I, you know, I'm not gonna do the Clive Davis sing for me, you know?
00:22:56
But (laughing)
00:22:59
but you can't even come work here, like you're that, you're that incredibly smart.
00:23:05
But obviously things took a different path.
00:23:08
And I signed her and that was her.
00:23:11
And one of the things that meant so much to me is the night before we signed the deal with her.
00:23:19
She got an offer from Sony UK to sign to them for twice the amount of money.
00:23:24
And that means a lot when you're struggling on artists, you know?
00:23:30
And she said no.
00:23:31
And she came with me and signed with me.
00:23:35
And at that point on, I would do anything for her.
00:23:39
I would do anything for her.
00:23:41
I really mortgage like my credibility, everything to make this vision that I had for her that matched up with her vision for herself, which when she told me in our first meeting,
00:23:52
I was like, what do you wanna be?
00:23:54
I wanna be against Nancy Sinatra, Larry.
00:23:58
That was the line.
00:23:59
That continued through the album cycle.
00:24:01
She knew.
00:24:02
Man, what a elevator pitch.
00:24:05
I was like, man, I'm sold.
00:24:07
I'm sold.
00:24:08
And yeah, twice the money, Ben Ed Lana, Ben and Ed are her managers from tap.
00:24:15
They turned it down.
00:24:16
They came with me and signed with Anderson.
00:24:19
And then we proceeded to make the debut album with Emile Haney and Justin Parker.
00:24:25
And what kid was doing the videos and-- But it wasn't all like Sunshine and Roses.
00:24:32
It was a bumpy rollout.
00:24:34
Chug it to.
00:24:35
And we made the album for $183,000.
00:24:39
The first album.
00:24:40
It's a lot or a little.
00:24:42
That's little, very little.
00:24:44
So many albums go into the millions, man.
00:24:47
From reporting cost perspective, we made that up for $183,000 born to die.
00:24:51
It's a big debut album.
00:24:53
And then, you know, I'm so maniacally driven by this person who decided to take what I thought was a real bet on me.
00:25:01
And maybe my confidence was low at the time because I just got fired from Sony.
00:25:05
I'm now trying to rebuild my career at Interscope with Jimmy and his blessing and backing and the whole thing.
00:25:11
And one day I had this idea.
00:25:15
I think she should be on Saturday night live.
00:25:18
And I wrote a letter, I authored the letter for Jimmy, two Lorne Michaels.
00:25:26
And I went to Jimmy.
00:25:29
And he, like, barely even-- He was so supportive, man, it was so sweet.
00:25:32
He barely even knew her name.
00:25:34
He's like, he used to eat for like a first year, he called her Alana.
00:25:39
But he was just happy that I was, like, passionate about something and I cared, you know?
00:25:43
Yeah, that's your girl, Alana.
00:25:44
Yeah, your girl, Alana.
00:25:45
Yeah, so wrote this letter and I brought it into him in his office, I'm like, sign this.
00:25:55
And we're going to include a DVD of this song video game, the video for video games and it shit worked.
00:26:01
Man, Lorne wrote back two days later.
00:26:03
Oh, Booker.
00:26:04
And we did Saturday Night Live.
00:26:06
The rest is history.
00:26:07
The rest is history.
00:26:09
This is her "Haping Sover" video.
00:26:11
This is her "Haping Sover" video.
00:26:12
She showed up.
00:26:13
I mean, I stand by, I watch that performance recently again.
00:26:17
I just don't, you know, you got to understand, man, the reason why I felt so passionate about it is because everything at that time from a pop perspective, I was looking to join forces with someone and I had the same vision with someone.
00:26:31
And I don't even know if she saw what I felt I was trying to solve for, which was like, I was so tired of like party rock anthem, TikTok, let's dance,
00:26:44
the other TikTok, the other TikTok.
00:26:44
Yeah, yes.
00:26:45
You know, that 128, four to the floor dance thing, it was just, oh, my God, I don't care.
00:26:50
He was the doctor who cared on another one.
00:26:52
So when you counterpoint, when you comment something that's 60 to 64 BPM, cuts it in half and slices through the monotony of everything because it is so antithetical and different to everything that's happening from a pop texture perspective,
00:27:08
it's going to strike people as like, what the **** is this?
00:27:11
So, being the petty individual that I am, I dug up an article from a friend,
00:27:22
a guy we may know by the name of John Carmonica.
00:27:24
Oh, no.
00:27:25
From 2012.
00:27:27
But I just want to say, I'm just going to say curable.
00:27:31
Before you get into this, I'm ready.
00:27:33
You're ready for filth on our own show.
00:27:35
But before we get into this, and we've talked about it before, before we get into this, I'm going to let you have your moment.
00:27:41
I'm going to ask you, do you remember who the real critic who cut through the noise about Lana Del Rey was because it was not John Carmonica.
00:27:48
He's going to get it.
00:27:49
He's going to catch a L today too.
00:27:50
Brian Williams.
00:27:51
Yes.
00:27:52
Brian Williams.
00:27:54
Brian Williams.
00:27:55
Okay.
00:27:56
Here's a thing.
00:27:57
I am ready.
00:27:58
I am ready.
00:27:59
I have incredibly advanced and evolved thoughts on this subject matter.
00:28:07
I invite you to read that.
00:28:09
Do your worst.
00:28:10
I invite you because I have, I am.
00:28:13
I'm just going to pull my favorite paragraph.
00:28:15
Chest out.
00:28:16
Like, this is, I believe January 24th, 2012.
00:28:20
That's a lot of time ago.
00:28:21
That's a lot of time ago.
00:28:22
I was in middle school.
00:28:23
You worked with a lot of lives since then.
00:28:27
We all have.
00:28:28
But I just felt this was working.
00:28:30
Let's go.
00:28:31
Larry, did you orchestrate this entire thing just to do this?
00:28:34
You never said it in the whole story already.
00:28:36
I, I, I, I anticipated our move.
00:28:39
If it's, if it's 12 days, 12 months or 12 years, man, I will spin the block.
00:28:45
So here we go.
00:28:48
Let's go.
00:28:49
You want to do this?
00:28:50
You want to do the camera?
00:28:51
This camera.
00:28:52
This camera.
00:28:53
This one.
00:28:54
Oh, okay.
00:28:55
This camera right here.
00:28:56
Excuse me.
00:28:57
There is.
00:28:58
I mean, straight face, please, excuse me, this is serious.
00:29:08
This was a real ass quote.
00:29:10
There is hypocrisy all around on the part of Nistel Ray, on the part of her various teams and enablers, on the part of her deceptors, on the part of executioners,
00:29:20
a career founded on bad faith all around can't be long for this world.
00:29:25
But at this point, what can Nistel Ray do?
00:29:29
Not much.
00:29:30
Her cultural stamp has already been affixed, her biography already written in concrete.
00:29:36
The only real option is to wash off that face paint, must up that hair and try again a few years.
00:29:42
There are so many, there are so many more names out there for the choosing.
00:29:49
Let me go back to the Brian Williams out of it all too.
00:29:51
This is like, wait, I don't get to, I don't get to, you're all right.
00:29:55
Let him hit BW first.
00:29:57
One more, one more, one more quote.
00:29:59
This album as anti climax, the period that ends with the essay, not the beginning of a new paragraph.
00:30:06
I thought that was going to, but that's John Williams.
00:30:09
I think, I think that, I think that's John.
00:30:12
But he pointed out in this piece, even the NBC news hipster, Brian Williams acted out in an email to gocker's hauncho, Nick Denton, that was published on the site seemingly without Mr.
00:30:24
Williams position as a outrage, quote unquote, one of the worst outings in SNL history booked on the strength of her two song EP.
00:30:32
By the way, he wasn't wrong after the story that I just told a lot of these people might be know who get gocker in.
00:30:39
I don't.
00:30:40
So is the question that you want to ask me, do I stand by that?
00:30:50
Is that the question you want to ask me?
00:30:52
Before I ask you that question, I just would like to reflect on what is transpired with that debut album in the past four years before we even get to that.
00:31:02
Just a few, few, few stats analytics that I wrote down about the album that, and this album, you better remember, like, man, I got fired by Sony with cause, man, they have squirted me out of the building over their amount of,
00:31:14
with two security guards, brought me out on a Friday afternoon around this time on this, like I was trash, man.
00:31:20
So I moved to LA.
00:31:22
This is the first artist that I signed.
00:31:24
I bet my entire career mortgage my future, everything on it.
00:31:28
And then I read this piece from this guy who I absolutely adore.
00:31:32
And I'm heartbroken.
00:31:33
And I'm like, it's over.
00:31:35
Look a lot of hearts with this piece in 2012, I broke a lot of hearts with this piece.
00:31:39
But this shout out a meal by the way, shout out a meal.
00:31:43
Shout out a meal, shout out a meal, Haiti, man.
00:31:45
But this is what A&R is.
00:31:48
It's about fortitude.
00:31:49
It's about picking yourself up, dusting yourself off and going forward, even in the face of when the world seems like it doesn't believe in what you believe in.
00:31:59
You keep going.
00:32:02
You keep going and what kept going happened was, it is now the best selling debut album of the 2010s, that day,
00:32:12
the best selling debut female album.
00:32:14
It's now sold 21 million copies around the world.
00:32:18
It's now spent over 500 weeks on the Billboard chart, which, she's, she's, she's born to die is the only, excuse me, it's number two albums by women with more than 500 weeks on the Billboard 200 chart.
00:32:32
Second to Adele's 21, not a rare pantheon with like Carol King's tapestry Adele's 21 wild.
00:32:38
It's still on the chart right now, 563 weeks later, since that, that, that, that whole moment.
00:32:46
And it's now the longest-running major label debut album by female artists in history.
00:32:52
So A&R, I took a long way around the block to make my point.
00:32:55
When you ask me about A&R, A&R is about that.
00:32:59
It's about vision, it's about fortitude, it's about the world telling you that your vision is wrong.
00:33:04
It's about sticking to your guns.
00:33:06
It's about running through brick walls.
00:33:09
It's about paper cuts.
00:33:10
It's about all of it.
00:33:12
That's what A&R is about.
00:33:13
>> All right, John.
00:33:14
What's music criticism about?
00:33:15
>> The floor is yours.
00:33:16
>> Okay.
00:33:17
So before I get into this, okay, before I get into a specific response, I address this very specific thing on an episode of the show in like 2021,
00:33:27
here's myself Lindsay Zola, here's another one of our pop music critics.
00:33:31
>> He also wrote an interview.
00:33:32
>> And by the way, and I did read some of your subsequent reviews, like you went to the Bill Gramsciplic auditorium, you gave a glowing review.
00:33:39
>> Yeah.
00:33:40
>> To me, Lana Del Rey has evolved into genuinely, I would say one of the three greatest living American songwriters.
00:33:48
>> I couldn't agree more.
00:33:49
So even now, the role of the music critic is, there's a number of things.
00:33:57
So it's, a lot of people think it's thumbs up, thumbs down, it's not thumbs up, thumbs down.
00:34:01
That's one small part of it.
00:34:03
You are literally texture reading discourse, men and narratives.
00:34:10
I'm bringing in my history of my perspective of music, my understanding even of Emil and what Emil had done previously, which is cutting and also to say nothing of,
00:34:20
if you have a built in narrative with a famous, I mean, you know, not the Brian Wong's, a famous music person.
00:34:26
But he was a guy at NBC, he was the lead anchor, right?
00:34:30
>> He was a moment and also what that piece is about when you read it in full, it's partially about the music of Lana Del Rey.
00:34:37
But it is also kind of meta commentary about what happens when someone emerges who stirs the pot in such an uncomfortable way that the ripple effects are incredibly intense.
00:34:51
And yes, is that a heavy handed conclusion?
00:34:53
Yes, is it also beautifully written?
00:34:55
Yes.
00:34:56
>> It was well written.
00:34:57
>> It was well written.
00:34:58
>> It was well written.
00:34:59
>> I reread that piece many times over the years, it's come up for a variety of reasons.
00:35:03
>> It's your Beyoncé, she's Noah Shahn.
00:35:05
>> Yes.
00:35:06
>> Yes.
00:35:07
>> That's a legend.
00:35:08
>> That's a legendary old New York Times piece by my predecessor.
00:35:11
>> I'm familiar with that one too, so I'm laughing.
00:35:14
So I've read it a bunch of times, it is at that specific moment in time, it was an accurate reflection of the discourse around that person.
00:35:26
And I, to my ear, the later records remain better.
00:35:31
The idea is more honed, it's evolved, it's deepened, it's richer, to me, this is a person who won album three,
00:35:42
four, five, out of there.
00:35:45
>> Yeah.
00:35:46
>> I don't think it's unfair to say that there is attention on that first album where it almost feels like it might fall apart a little bit.
00:35:56
It's not totally stitched up, and that's okay, I agree with everything you said except for that part.
00:36:06
But that album is one of my children, so it's very tough for me too.
00:36:10
But it's also, it was your job at the time to be thinking about albums three, four, five, six, seven.
00:36:15
>> Yeah, for sure.
00:36:16
>> And it was John's job at the time to react only to what he had seen in that.
00:36:21
>> By the way, I love John, man, this is not- >> No, I was only joking.
00:36:24
>> I was just wondering for like, you know- >> Honestly, truly, better than I could have ever been.
00:36:28
>> And a gift and an honor to be read by you.
00:36:32
>> I appreciate that man.
00:36:33
>> I appreciate that man.
00:36:34
>> So fun.
00:36:35
>> I appreciate that man.
00:36:36
>> So fun.
00:36:37
>> Yeah, but you sitting in your nice office at InnerScope reading this article.
00:36:41
>> Do you read online?
00:36:42
>> Do you read it in the print paper?
00:36:43
>> Yeah.
00:36:44
>> You don't have any memory?
00:36:45
>> No, it was just a rough week.
00:36:46
That's my memory.
00:36:47
I remember- >> I remember.
00:36:48
>> I remember.
00:36:49
>> You didn't brought it into your office.
00:36:50
>> Yeah, he faxed it to you.
00:36:51
>> No, man.
00:36:52
>> And he was like, I thought Alana was good.
00:36:55
>> I know.
00:36:56
I remember, it was Saturday, I flew back on a- I flew back on a Sunday.
00:37:00
I remember Bob left's- Bob left's wrote an equally eviscerating piece.
00:37:04
>> Yeah, John, why you got to be so mean?
00:37:05
>> Yeah, no.
00:37:06
>> Bob left's and he won another level deeper than Brian Williams or John even went.
00:37:11
And I just remember walking into the 10 AM staff meeting on Monday morning.
00:37:15
And I felt like- I felt like it was like second grade, and like I peed in my pants and like all the other kids laughing.
00:37:23
It was just so- it was rough, man.
00:37:25
And I was like, ah, but when you talk about the- the legends, the creative legends who bequeathed,
00:37:37
Jimmy was so- he had such grace and such belief in me and in Lana.
00:37:45
And we had a studio across the street from inner scope.
00:37:49
And he was over there every single day with us working on just performance and honing it and just like we went into boot camp for two weeks after that.
00:38:01
And it was so helpful in affirming and important to have that kind of person in your corner.
00:38:10
And I don't know, by the way, if he- if I'm looking at reflecting back really candidly, if he didn't do that and he didn't imbue me and her with that belief in that moment.
00:38:20
It may have been a harder, he'll decline for me psychologically, confidence wise, then it ultimately became by having someone like that who supported us,
00:38:31
who had made Beledana, you know what I mean?
00:38:34
Who had made, you know, edge of 17 and work with Stevie Nicks and knew what it was like to have a female star who was a Shen truce, you know,
00:38:44
a Shen truce who was like, you know, that kind of talent and, um, yeah, props to him, man, for really doing it.
00:38:54
You made another point, which is kind of a taste point a moment ago, um, about polarization.
00:39:02
And the one thing that I've definitely found is a common denominator in the choices that I often make creatively for myself, um, no longer as an A&R, but as a creative executive.
00:39:12
I do, I think I am drawn to things that are, uh, polarizing, um, provocative, um, uh, divisive,
00:39:24
um, and she definitely is one of those chief keyf is absolutely one of those.
00:39:28
Yeah, I mean, sexy red is one of those.
00:39:30
And by the way, you and I first met, I believe in, let me know if my memory is incorrect, uh, when I was managing Kanye, yeah, in the easiest piece, which I just reread, which is also very well written.
00:39:40
So we, we didn't eat briefly.
00:39:43
I believe we met briefly with chief keyf at pit fork.
00:39:46
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did that in that backstage area.
00:39:50
I think we did.
00:39:51
Yes, we did.
00:39:52
Pre-ease.
00:39:53
Pre-ease.
00:39:54
Yeah.
00:39:55
Yeah.
00:39:56
Yeah.
00:39:57
The last thing.
00:39:58
And first of all, honestly, to be, to be read even as critique as a writer, yeah, that's the dream.
00:40:02
Yeah.
00:40:03
But this is what I'll say.
00:40:04
Like, you, you reading is critique is no different than me doing my job.
00:40:11
Criticism to me, the act of criticism, what I wake up and do every day in the newspaper on the podcast, criticism isn't a gesture of love is a gesture of close listening.
00:40:21
Yeah.
00:40:22
It is a gesture of empathy because it's so hard for anybody to care anymore.
00:40:26
So the fact that you cared, it's to show up, yes, I put my heart and perspective as intensely into this work as everyone else,
00:40:36
even in the works that I assess.
00:40:38
And so for me, I wish I loved everything that would be amazing.
00:40:45
But also I have to be as true to myself.
00:40:47
But the fact that I think the fact that we can all sit here 10 years later or 12 years later and have this conversation, the thing that I try to impress upon artists and executives and publicists is getting a negative review,
00:41:00
getting a skeptical review is as much an active love as receiving a pat on the head or a rave.
00:41:09
It was an active love because it motivated us, motivated me so hugely.
00:41:16
I can't even tell you.
00:41:18
It really did.
00:41:20
And if I thought I was obsessed and maniacal before, my God, after all that first week and reading that piece and the left sits piece and Brian Williams and there was,
00:41:31
it was piled on.
00:41:33
It was other people.
00:41:34
But those are the three that I remember, hugely motivational, hugely.
00:41:39
But you know, the biggest debut album by female artists and major label history, 21 million albums later, we needed it.
00:41:47
We needed that.
00:41:48
We got a lot of ground to cover.
00:41:49
We do.
00:41:50
We do.
00:41:51
We can do a whole podcast along the way.
00:41:53
And we'll send you offline the episode that we did talk about the songs.
00:41:57
We had a really good conversation about that era specifically.
00:41:59
But before we move on, why the drag you out of the Sony building?
00:42:05
I mean, you have to ask.
00:42:09
I gave my brother a New York kind subscription.
00:42:12
She sent me her long subscription so I have access to all the games.
00:42:16
We will do a word old mini spelling bee.
00:42:18
It has given us a personal connection.
00:42:21
We change articles and so having read the same article, we can discuss it.
00:42:26
The coverage, the options, not just news.
00:42:29
Such a diversified bit.
00:42:30
I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes and we even just shared a recipe the other day.
00:42:39
The New York Times contributes to our quality time together.
00:42:42
You have all of that information on your fingertips.
00:42:44
It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons.
00:42:48
It was such a cool and thoughtful gift.
00:42:50
We're reading the same stuff, we're making the same food.
00:42:54
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00:43:10
I don't think I've ever told the story before, but I'll tell it.
00:43:13
I mean, you know, getting fired is one thing.
00:43:15
Getting fired with cause is another thing.
00:43:18
It's kind of brand new with a bit of a scarlet letter, but I care.
00:43:24
It's actually a very important story.
00:43:25
It's probably a really good story before we could off the subject of A&R.
00:43:29
Because you asked me about Keith, we talked about Lana, and now the story of why I got fired is another very, very critical A&R story that I'd like to pass on and bequeath as well.
00:43:39
I signed Jennifer Hudson with Clyde Davis.
00:43:42
I produced the first album with Clyde and won a Grammy for it.
00:43:46
I won a Grammy for Best R&B Alums album producer with Clyde, happened when I was 28 years old.
00:43:56
It was like a really surreal moment for that to happen because it was never even on my vision board to, you know, be a Grammy award-winning producer, but it happened when I was 28.
00:44:05
And, you know, it was a very successful album.
00:44:08
A single spotlight went number one, sold a couple of million copies of the album.
00:44:14
We nailed it, you know, and then the second album came around and they wanted the album before the end of the physical quarter.
00:44:26
And I think that was March 31st, 2020, 2011 is when this album needed to be turned in by.
00:44:35
And I just wrapped up Whitney Houston's album, and we had a big hit off that I'm a million dollar bill.
00:44:41
And it went number one in England and, you know, number one urban in the US, whatever.
00:44:46
So, and again, that's marrying the right song with the right artist, Alicia Keys, Swiss Beats wrote that song.
00:44:53
So I naturally went back to them and said, hey, let's do it again.
00:44:58
And I'm working on Jennifer's album.
00:45:00
I would love for us to do something that's got that kind of feel to it.
00:45:03
And then like modernized Whitney, that was one of her late period hits.
00:45:06
Totally.
00:45:07
Yeah.
00:45:08
Yeah, but it was still soulful.
00:45:09
So, you know, they had just gotten married, Alicia was pregnant with Egypt, and I groveled to get them to write this record.
00:45:22
And they said, no.
00:45:24
And then one day they called me up and then they said, we come to the studio, Germano on on on what's worse, Germano, I think it's on a lot and it's on Broadway.
00:45:33
I think, yeah, Broadway and great Jones went down there, listened, and holy crap.
00:45:39
They wrote the record and paid for the studio time.
00:45:42
I thought it was such an active love, such a gesture of love that, you know, it's very easy to like win me over with like acts of love, like that selfless, you know, gestures of that nature.
00:45:52
And it was very, very thoughtful.
00:45:54
And we went in and had lunch with Clive the next day, played in the song.
00:45:58
I just don't think at the time, if I can reflect on it with honesty, that I was, I however was being thoughtful enough to my boss at the time who was very wise,
00:46:08
I should have included him in the process a bit more, you know, not made it about just Clive and the whole thing or whatever.
00:46:18
And this is me really being magnanimous by saying this, you know, but you jump the chain of command a little bit.
00:46:22
Yeah, you know, I just didn't play Capitol Hill all the way, you know, the way that I should have.
00:46:28
It happens.
00:46:29
So I think maybe, I think I think he certainly felt a way about that.
00:46:33
And it led to a very, um, Terce intense, impractical negotiation around the, the, the compensation for this song.
00:46:44
So it got to a point where Alicia was about to give birth to Egypt.
00:46:49
And I really wanted to get this song done.
00:46:52
And she was like, listen, I'll knock this out when I come back, uh, from attorney, leave in six months, and I'm like, no, no, oh, so, and then I got a call from, uh,
00:47:02
Oprah's executive producer that day that they were going to do a two day special with Jennifer Hudson on the Oprah Winfrey show when the Oprah Winfrey show was TikTok,
00:47:13
you know, and I got the call from Alicia that day.
00:47:16
I got the call from Lisa from the Oprah Winfrey show that day.
00:47:20
And I had to go home, think about it, sleep on it, get resource while I call, climb up the next morning.
00:47:27
I said, I'm going to pay personally and cover the Delta for what Sony won't pay out of my own pocket.
00:47:35
Are you sure that's a good idea?
00:47:37
I've never heard of an A&R man doing anything of that nature.
00:47:41
Clive is the only idea.
00:47:44
I'm cooked.
00:47:45
Otherwise, because then the album's not going to come, they're going to blame me for not making the numbers.
00:47:50
I'm cooked.
00:47:51
Like, I have to do this.
00:47:52
Like, I don't feel like I have an option and my back was the delay because Alicia was giving birth or was the delay financial?
00:48:00
The delay was we couldn't make a deal.
00:48:01
I see.
00:48:02
So I had to step in resourcefully between the biggest artists on the label and the chairman to say, this is how I think we can bridge the gap.
00:48:11
I'll eat it.
00:48:12
I'll eat it.
00:48:13
I'll make it back.
00:48:14
If I believe so much in what I'm betting on, I'll make it back in my A&R royalty.
00:48:20
So we did it.
00:48:22
Scheduled the session for Monday.
00:48:24
Again, I don't think that I necessarily messaged this in the right way.
00:48:27
I just kind of went like Cavalier and just like, we're going to the studio.
00:48:31
The chair put the check on the console.
00:48:34
Let's go.
00:48:36
That we did and they found out about it and, yeah, man.
00:48:45
We worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Alicia on Friday went into the hospital to give birth to Egypt and they called me up that morning.
00:48:57
I was excited because my friend just gave birth.
00:48:59
We just had four amazing days in the studio where we cut the first single.
00:49:03
I was, I was, those kind of moments in life are just so electric.
00:49:08
You can't, you're levitating.
00:49:11
So here I am levitating into a 5 p.m.
00:49:14
meeting on a Friday.
00:49:15
We all know about a 5 p.m.
00:49:17
meeting on a Friday, don't we?
00:49:18
Yeah, I'm saying.
00:49:19
I'm like this.
00:49:20
It's a great 5 p.m.
00:49:21
meeting.
00:49:21
I thought I was getting fired today.
00:49:23
Yeah.
00:49:24
We're here to Joe Peschy.
00:49:28
Yeah.
00:49:29
So, you know, I got it done.
00:49:35
I was scrappy.
00:49:36
I was resourceful, you know, I thought I was winning.
00:49:40
Yeah.
00:49:41
And I walk into the room.
00:49:42
It's ahead of human resources.
00:49:44
The president and my friend Barry Weiss, who was a chairman at that time.
00:49:49
And I'm sitting there and I'm looking right across and, hey, guys, what's going on today?
00:49:55
You want to hear the single?
00:49:57
By the way, Alicia, you just gave birth today, do you just send her flowers?
00:50:01
Yeah, that's not why we're here today.
00:50:04
What you did was egregious and subordinate and we just can't have our executive deciding that they want to go against the company rule.
00:50:18
So you're fired with cause, securities waiting outside the door.
00:50:23
You'll get your bag from your office and have a nice life.
00:50:29
You know, there were other things going on at the time as well.
00:50:32
If I'm being candid, my ex-ex girlfriend was signed to me, which I don't advise anybody to do.
00:50:40
By the way, by the way, number one, do not sign your significant other.
00:50:46
You will, you're asking for trouble, seriously, and I, yeah, I mean, I was acting out because I wasn't necessarily getting the attention that I felt that project deserved.
00:51:01
And I was also playing with a hot hand.
00:51:03
I just given them womanizer for Britney Spears.
00:51:06
I had just finished Leon Lewis's album, which was like eight times platinum.
00:51:10
I just finished with Whitney, which was a big hit.
00:51:13
I just did Monica, which was also a platinum.
00:51:16
Like I was rolling sevens, man.
00:51:17
And I was just like, man, give me a shot with her, they'll come out.
00:51:22
The record.
00:51:23
I'm saying with the ex, you know, the record did come out.
00:51:26
It was it was like, it was a silly and Dallas Denver, you know, I'm really embarrassed.
00:51:34
That's part of your, he never won a leash, Alicia actually never even took the check.
00:51:40
There was never any.
00:51:41
It was just the, again, it was just the act of love.
00:51:43
It was a gesture.
00:51:44
It was a gesture.
00:51:45
Back in life experience.
00:51:46
I made it back in life experience without a question.
00:51:50
And the only thing I could say is with maturity, I have, I have perspective now.
00:51:57
And what I do it again, yeah, but a different way.
00:52:01
I would be more communicative and I would, and I would be more inclusive.
00:52:04
And, you know, I think, I think Barry Weiss is amazing, man.
00:52:06
I think he, he's one of the few executives and this is the guy who fired me, who caused, you know, he's a friend to this day, if I called him today.
00:52:15
But it's also the ability to forgive, you know, and that's a big part of it too.
00:52:21
It's the ability to forgive.
00:52:22
And but what I respect about Barry, who ran jive with Clive Calder in the 90s, you're talking about souls of mischief, E 42,
00:52:33
UGK fresh, fresh, fresh, pensabella air, insync, backstreet Markelli, the publishing label, which had publishing company,
00:52:43
which had Max Martin, I mean, what a run, man.
00:52:46
I mean, incredible run and, and he is a guy who just loves music, you know, and I appreciate that about him because in the world of people who don't,
00:52:56
and who donate and are like, I, I appreciate, you know, and, and, and, you know, every time I see him, and I'm here to confirm today on this podcast, he's like, you owe me, give me a piece of your,
00:53:08
your, your career.
00:53:10
I bet.
00:53:11
I made this moment for you now, and I'm like, yes, Barry, you have, I understand.
00:53:15
So Barry, the check is in the mail, but this is, but this is a value, there's a valuable follow-up here, which is, you run York, you're the Barry now.
00:53:24
Yeah.
00:53:25
Yeah.
00:53:26
Absolutely.
00:53:27
If someone on your team were to do the equivalent under your employee, how would you handle that?
00:53:33
That's a really interesting question.
00:53:37
I certainly think, what I'd be annoyed about it, I don't, I don't know.
00:53:43
I don't think so, because now I have the perspective of like, I'm, I'm, I'm actually not even Barry.
00:53:49
I'm more like, I'm, I'm an entrepreneur who went out and raised capital, heard no 13 times until I got to the 14th, yes, which was Todd Bowley from Eldridge who I owe so much to,
00:54:00
but even before that Apple did something which they've never done before, which is invested in a parting senior executives, new vision,
00:54:10
you know, new venture, and, and this is, this is a whole other different rodeo.
00:54:16
I'm not, I'm not an employee, I don't have a job.
00:54:18
This is what I believe in.
00:54:21
This is I, I own the company along with them.
00:54:24
This is, this is a whole other different thing.
00:54:27
Barry was an entrepreneur, certainly with Clive in the 90s without question, but at that point he was the paid executive who was running our state music group at that time.
00:54:36
For me at this time, it was really important for me to step out and do this now because of just where the first question you asked me about, like the where the business is at, and the opportunity that I spotted and saw while I was Apple that I felt like I couldn't necessarily go on and watch certain things unfold in the business and be a bystander and not get in the game and,
00:55:00
and, and, and use the knowledge that I've been butqueeth and the lessons that I've learned of the nature with which you just asked me about and not apply it to now.
00:55:08
So if someone did that now, candidly, I probably would support and applaud it because it's the mark of real true entrepreneurship.
00:55:17
It's putting your money on the line and believing in something in a way and it, it, it, it, it supersedes having a job.
00:55:24
It's like you really care and that's very special.
00:55:28
So I hire a bunch of people who around me at Gamma, which we'll get into in a moment that are all, all, all, they're all entrepreneurly minded.
00:55:37
So a little light in subordination is okay, it's okay.
00:55:41
Yeah, and I want to talk about how you got there because we'll talk about Gamma, but I feel like one of the problems that Gamma is trying to solve,
00:55:53
at least from where I'm sitting is like, what is the role of a label today and how can we best partner with an artist?
00:56:01
And I think you don't go from working at Sony and then Universal directly to making Gamma, you have this stop in between with beats, which was a huge lesson on you kidding me.
00:56:13
And then you know, it became Apple Music and we have the birth of streaming and all that and you got to help disrupt the label system from the outside and then take what you learned to make maybe a new kind of label.
00:56:28
But at this moment in between is where I think the seeds of a lot of what's happening right now between Drake and Kendrick and UMG were planted.
00:56:39
You wrote a piece about it in 2016, and I think it was, a lot of things happen that year.
00:56:46
And that's an important year.
00:56:48
Grown into what we see today and some of those things just briefly, the Frank Ocean release.
00:56:54
Yeah, that was that year.
00:56:56
The Frank Ocean double release, which may have involved some slight of hand endless comes out, blonde comes out independently, long week journalistically,
00:57:10
creatively as well, but yes, the riveting.
00:57:13
The popular understanding of that now is that he puts out one album endless to fulfill his label contract with Def Jam and then release his blonde independently in partnership with Apple Music.
00:57:23
We have even was recently as this month, last month, you have, you know, Lil TJ saying he's doing that today, you have, saying they were doing that a couple of weeks ago with their album.
00:57:35
You have, you know, people saying how many projects is really happy to hear that that moment had that level of inspiration.
00:57:40
Drake.
00:57:41
Oh, you know, it's just Draco Universal an album is he trying to get out of his conch, all of this kind of stuff.
00:57:46
You have chance to rapper releasing coloring book, yeah, yeah, that happened that year too.
00:57:51
Yeah, Apple.
00:57:52
And you have Drake basically having at least in that period, seemingly a closer relationship with you and Jimmy and the marketing dollars at Apple.
00:58:03
Then he had with his own record label, he's releasing music exclusively on his beats one show.
00:58:09
Yeah.
00:58:10
Yeah, Apple.
00:58:11
You guys make a short film, music video.
00:58:12
Yeah.
00:58:13
Please give me that you worked on, which goes with views, which ends up being the sort of pace setting, streaming album of of the early streaming area and of course 1.2 million in one week.
00:58:22
And all of this stuff is what allows Apple to compete with Spotify who had a head start in this space, obviously.
00:58:28
Very much so.
00:58:29
Yeah.
00:58:30
And that's what you guys were trying to gin up marketing wise to get a toe hold in to the streaming industry.
00:58:37
This is, again, this is my quick summary of, you know, a period eight years ago in which we were covering you essentially and the moves you're making.
00:58:47
Did you see, looking back, do you see yourself and what you and Jimmy were doing with whether it's Drake, Frank, Chance, even Taylor Swift,
00:58:58
having her and Apple commercials along with Drake, were you being a pain in the ass to the major labels, was that being intentionally provocative?
00:59:10
Yeah.
00:59:11
I mean, were you trying to use like Google translated there, where you must have known and you must have gotten some pleasure having left that system of,
00:59:22
wow, I feel like I'm on my therapist.
00:59:24
Being a nudge, being a scooch to them in some way, you know, like elbowing them over and over again.
00:59:29
Cause each of those individual projects troubles a particular part of the relationship between an original label.
00:59:36
They're all slightly pissed for the music video.
00:59:38
Yes.
00:59:39
Who gets the exclusive?
00:59:40
Disappointed.
00:59:41
Yes.
00:59:42
Who where are the songs being.
00:59:43
It's like identifying.
00:59:44
It's like you've been in the system.
00:59:45
You see where the weak points are.
00:59:46
Then you come out of the system and be like, okay, I have five artists and I can exploit five different weak points.
00:59:51
Yeah.
00:59:52
There was a movie called The Spook Who Set By The Door with respect to that, that yay, oftentimes references with respect to me as the character from that film.
01:00:00
He's like, you're the spook who set by the door.
01:00:03
But that feels true to you, that that was, that was what you were assaying to do during that period.
01:00:09
Well, you're answering the question for me.
01:00:11
Just, yes.
01:00:12
I think, I mean, I just, I guess maybe I just reflected on this moment if I'm being truly introspective and honest and that the art that I'm drawn to is provocative,
01:00:27
it could be polarizing, it could be divisive and I think that's interesting in a world mostly made up of M.O.R.
01:00:38
Middle of the road.
01:00:39
So, you know, the art that to me is the most interesting is the art that creates the general party conversation, you know, that has the group chat blowing up.
01:00:52
And I think in many ways, my spirit and approach oftentimes embodies what I like about art.
01:01:01
And I think to answer your question directly and not so esoterically, yeah, did I understand that that was what was the play at that time?
01:01:10
Yes, but I thought that that it was more minor and incidental versus major and consequential because the,
01:01:22
listen, when you put up eight figures and marketing money for an album like Views or, you know, coloring, what we were doing was popularizing streaming.
01:01:35
So, it was ushering in a new medium after you're coming off of a year like 2013, which was the lowest revenue year in the history of the recorded music business and we're subsidizing the return to health,
01:01:49
nursing back the return to health through marketing and continually doing these things, which is educating the public.
01:01:56
Now this new medium by way of which you get your music, yeah, maybe part of it felt that with a little bit, but I had a great relationship with Monty, great relationship with L.A.
01:02:07
Reid.
01:02:08
But it started.
01:02:09
Yeah.
01:02:10
Exactly.
01:02:11
And I felt like they got it, but did you think you can break that system?
01:02:19
Because ultimately if you take a star like Frank Ocean and find a way through your dollars to get Frank out of the contract that Frank's in,
01:02:29
right?
01:02:29
That's number one.
01:02:30
You take a star of Drake's level, I'm not going to confirm or deny what you just said last night.
01:02:36
But I, but yes, you take a star of Drake's level and use the power of Drake's fame at that level to leverage it to essentially, as you just said,
01:02:47
advertise streaming and bring people who maybe had not come to the, come to the party, bring them to the party.
01:02:54
Yeah.
01:02:55
At a certain point, what's on the vision board, I've got to assume is if I've got the most famous people that I'm in partnership with, I can provide them distribution, I can provide them marketing dollars,
01:03:08
I can provide them a megaphone on top of their art.
01:03:11
Yeah.
01:03:12
I can make the business as provocative as the art.
01:03:15
Listen, I think maybe the major label system that you left behind, maybe that doesn't need to be there anymore.
01:03:23
I'm looking at a business that in 2023 was up 7% and for the first half in the US that is in the first half of 2024 was only up 3.9%.
01:03:34
So I would even venture to say that the business can use some more provocations.
01:03:38
You're talking about the music business, right?
01:03:40
Yeah.
01:03:41
Everything's so polite.
01:03:42
It's just like, you know, it was my old friend Andre Herrel was saying, let's get the going on, going on, and those moves were noisy.
01:03:50
They were resounding, you know what I'm saying?
01:03:53
And yeah, beefs can beat that, but I just think the business needs an infusion of a bit more ingenuity and bravery and people not being afraid of not being liked.
01:04:13
Not everyone's gonna like you and you're gonna do some things that pissed off some people.
01:04:17
But oftentimes it's actually for the betterment of the whole to do things that are provocative and that's what those moves were.
01:04:25
I mean, I can't help but think of what Drake may be moving towards in his potential lawsuit against Universal with what you're saying.
01:04:32
So, you know, I didn't relate it, but I understand.
01:04:35
On the heels of Kendrick's not like us, you know, being both the biggest song of the year and also the song that says, Hey Drake,
01:04:45
I heard you like him young, et cetera, et cetera.
01:04:49
Drake is saying to his label that he shared with Kendrick, Universal, why are you allowing?
01:04:57
Not only allowing one of your biggest artists to be disparaged on behalf of another artist's own popularity, but also what kind of levers did you pull to send this song into the stratosphere?
01:05:12
Did you cut the streaming rate out Spotify to make it recommended to more people?
01:05:16
Did you pay radio stations to play at these are things that, you know, Drake's legal team is hinting towards, proposing, you know, wants to depose the people involved about.
01:05:26
I didn't know all this.
01:05:27
I learned this for the first time.
01:05:28
Oh.
01:05:29
Tell me this.
01:05:30
I don't believe it.
01:05:31
Tell me this now for the first time.
01:05:32
Yeah.
01:05:33
It's interesting.
01:05:34
Is this all happening right now?
01:05:36
So, I mean, I have a lot of questions about this.
01:05:38
It's posing inside that mohair.
01:05:39
I have a question about how this is being received in your group, Chats.
01:05:44
In the executive suites of these labels and these companies that compete with labels.
01:05:50
But also what you're saying about, you know, being in polite and making yourself a villain and whatever, like my read of what Drake is attempting to do so far and what we've only seen the first few steps of it are,
01:06:04
you know, he wants to now in maybe that it's no longer working in his favor or entirely in his favor wants to help dismantle, burn down the streaming system that you guys helped build in some way,
01:06:16
and that he became the poster child for with the album views, as you're talking about, sort of the guy who's moving music consumption towards streaming with whatever behind the scenes,
01:06:28
tricks that may involve whether they're legal, illegal, above board.
01:06:33
Was I?
01:06:34
Yeah.
01:06:35
You know?
01:06:36
So the person who deserves a blame is Bill Clinton.
01:06:38
No.
01:06:39
And let me tell you why.
01:06:40
Let me tell you why.
01:06:41
Let me tell you why.
01:06:42
You're talking about deregulation.
01:06:45
I mean, yeah, the 1996 telecommunications act, I mean, Google it.
01:06:52
I know.
01:06:53
Yeah.
01:06:54
Pull that up, man.
01:06:55
Yeah, I believe that's where we're landing.
01:06:56
This man asked you about Drake's petition and you talking about the telecommunications act.
01:07:02
I just land to this point and then we're going to go push you.
01:07:05
I think the blame is with William Jefferson Clinton, man, because when you look at what happened in the wake of that, this is now the perils of corporate consolidation.
01:07:19
When I hear somebody talking about Snoop, who signed to me, who I just spoke to today for an hour, told him I was doing this interview.
01:07:28
By the way, so excited about its Snoop, by the way, is the best partner.
01:07:33
He really, I mean, I'm so happy to have signed him and be part of this renaissance that he's having.
01:07:39
He's the corporate pitchman of our era.
01:07:41
You know, but but but but a G is still a bit more still smokes the most weed out anybody that I know, you know, he did and he didn't change for nobody.
01:07:51
He didn't he's he's interesting because he's authentic.
01:07:55
He's he's himself and I when I went to go visit him during the Olympics at the George tank in Paris and I stepped off the fifth floor and that thing smelled like a grow house.
01:08:04
I was proud of him.
01:08:05
I was like, this man just smoked out the George tank with dignitaries staying here.
01:08:10
Every security downstairs imaginable is there for the Olympics.
01:08:14
There's not anybody anybody who's a normal layman that's staying there.
01:08:17
It's only heads of state and Snoop dog.
01:08:21
And I walk off the fifth floor and this man has a whole thing smelling like a dispensary.
01:08:25
And I was so proud of him, man.
01:08:26
But any event somebody talks smack about Snoop dog.
01:08:30
I called him up recently when I heard something I said, Snoop, what are we doing?
01:08:34
What's happening?
01:08:35
Do I need to get active?
01:08:36
You're riding with your guy.
01:08:37
I'm riding with my guy and I'm calling him, I'm leaning into it, I'm not ignoring the call.
01:08:44
You're talking about Kendrick.
01:08:45
I'm returning the call.
01:08:46
You're talking about Kendrick?
01:08:47
I'm talking about what somebody knows I'm talking about, but it's just like I'm leaning into it and I'm riding for my guy.
01:08:57
Certain people expect that when they when they when they sign, you know what I'm saying?
01:09:01
And I can I can understand being spoiled with respect to want to having those experiences and wanting to continually feel that with an executive having your back.
01:09:11
100% 100% 100% and by the way, nobody did it better.
01:09:15
You're telling like this right now is artists of a high net worth corporate consolidated companies and this is,
01:09:26
you know, this is every tower stuff.
01:09:31
Jimmy in the 90s was leaning into it, you're talking about the FBI, you're talking about deaths, you're talking about two of the artists of our generation dying within six months of each other.
01:09:45
Biggie Pock, death or hell.
01:09:46
You know what I'm saying?
01:09:47
That's what you're alluding to.
01:09:49
Absolutely.
01:09:50
It doesn't like Dre and he's got to defuse that situation.
01:09:54
Both of whom were signed to Jimmy.
01:09:55
So that I mean like and Jimmy at his hands in it.
01:09:59
He was defusing it.
01:10:00
He was navigating it.
01:10:01
He was selling it.
01:10:02
He was selling it.
01:10:03
Yeah.
01:10:04
And he was having the back of respective individuals in the situation to mediate in a way that was okay.
01:10:16
What happened to Pock was in a result of that in terms of like, in terms of the corporate beef out of all in that particular way.
01:10:24
It was obviously, we know what happened was a whole lot of different situation and nothing to do with inner scope.
01:10:29
But the things that did have something to do in terms of hit him up and those kind of things like Jack and the no diggy beat for that, you know, I mean, these were like really wild things that were going on.
01:10:41
So there is an example of having good bedside manner and acumen to be able to lean in and defuse these situations with a plum.
01:10:50
And I don't know.
01:10:52
I don't know.
01:10:53
You think that's what's missing in the Drake and Kendrick situation that there that somebody could have stepped in earlier.
01:10:58
No, I'm not saying that because I can't, I don't want to profess to know.
01:11:03
I don't want to, I don't want to say that I profess to know the details of what transpires.
01:11:07
Sure.
01:11:08
You shouldn't arrange said to Drake or to Kendrick or to anyone involved as this was happening.
01:11:13
No idea.
01:11:14
We might hear in these depositions.
01:11:15
And he, and he, he's, Lucien is one of the greats, totally.
01:11:19
I mean, this guy is, I work for him for three years at, at, at Universal.
01:11:25
He's one of the smartest executives, truly, beyond.
01:11:28
So I, I can't say that I am an expert with respect to what transpired.
01:11:32
I can tell you what I'm, what I'm telling you is how to deal with situations like that.
01:11:39
That's what I'm saying.
01:11:41
And sometimes it gets tough, we're, we're living like I said in the wake of corporate consolidation.
01:11:46
And it gets messy, you know, but because, because both these guys are under one roof, it, but does whatever is going to happen in the 2.0 of the Drake situation,
01:11:57
which we don't know, but he's one of the potential pathways that's around this next corner in essence.
01:12:05
The dissolution of the major label system is we currently understand that.
01:12:09
That's happening with or without this situation.
01:12:11
You think 100% of the music right now that is coming out is through independence,
01:12:25
independent artists, independent acts, independent albums, Spotify paid out in 2023, $9 billion, 50% of that $9 billion, $4.5 went to independent musicians,
01:12:39
artists.
01:12:40
One would assume with the emergence of gamma, etc., that in 2024, when the dust settles and the numbers are tabulated, that that number will be higher than 50% for 2024.
01:12:54
So this situation, while it is entertaining too many, and, you know, I feel a way about that because when you talk about two artists, you know, that happened to within six months,
01:13:05
I don't find any of it entertaining quite frankly, in my opinion, because I, you know, I lived through that.
01:13:13
But the ship is left the dog.
01:13:16
So you're grabbing the mic and you're saying, if you don't want to be under the same roof, if you don't want to be, they're not sticking up for you, you know what I'm saying?
01:13:26
All in the video.
01:13:27
Yeah.
01:13:28
Come to camera.
01:13:29
This you can say to camera.
01:13:30
I want to dwell on this for one more second, because I want to get your read on it from a culture perspective as well as from this perspective, Drake opting to go the legal route in the wake of a beef battle to a battle that to its credit stayed musical.
01:13:49
Yes.
01:13:50
As far as we know, with quality records and with quality music, to then take that into the legal sphere, do you, do you wins at that?
01:14:00
Do other people do your friends in the industry, both on the artists or executive side wins at that?
01:14:07
Like, what is the temperature right now for Drake's choice?
01:14:12
It's cozy in the smoke here, man.
01:14:14
I live in the staying.
01:14:15
I sleep in it.
01:14:16
I shouldn't have given you that bar.
01:14:17
I shouldn't have given you that bar.
01:14:18
I mean, this is like, I'm touching it while I'm in the interview with that nice, you know.
01:14:25
I couldn't even tell you, you know, but I could tell you that someone feels like they were an asset that was worth protecting,
01:14:35
and if you're going to spend all his money for me as an asset, I'm worth protecting.
01:14:44
Or you told me I was worth protecting?
01:14:46
I don't know.
01:14:47
I just, you know, that's how I have felt before in the past when you talk about getting fired, you know.
01:14:55
I remember right when I got fired, I was supposed to be able to climb at that time, actually.
01:15:01
And he, I called him up after I got thrown out of the building and climb.
01:15:08
Where are you?
01:15:09
I've got theater in a half an hour.
01:15:10
You're late.
01:15:11
You're always late.
01:15:13
Like I was sadly today too.
01:15:16
And that's a clave.
01:15:17
I just got fired.
01:15:18
And he said, stop lying.
01:15:20
This is not the time for jokes here.
01:15:22
And I said, nah, man, I really just got fired.
01:15:26
And he reflected on it and he called me back later on when he found out that it did happen.
01:15:30
And he said something that relates to the prior point, which is, you know, this never should have happened to you.
01:15:37
You're so talented and you deliver for them from an A&R perspective and you, you have been so your star here, you've never even written up for anything.
01:15:48
I mean, I've dealt with them all, you know, LA and babyface and, you know, Clive called on Puffy and I've dealt with them all.
01:15:58
You're a puppy compared to any of the addicts here.
01:16:01
I mean, what is this here?
01:16:04
He felt like I was an asset that was worth protecting.
01:16:08
What else we going to talk about?
01:16:10
But that's, but what I will say is if that is indeed what Drake is feeling, which we don't know, is the fact that he feels that he could do better and potentially outside of that system and not ask someone to protect and not be in business with a person and expect protection.
01:16:32
Is that a bell weather for not just that level of artists, how they're going to move just moving forward, but people who are, you know, five years earlier in their career arc,
01:16:44
ten years earlier in their career arc?
01:16:46
Is that something that's specific to the scale of Drake incorporated or Kendrick incorporated, or is that something that cross generationally labels no longer are obliged to offer and people may no longer seek at labels?
01:17:01
I don't have anything, I'm not, I'm not here to, or ever trying to grind an axe with the major labels.
01:17:11
I have many friends that are there, shout out to Peter Edge, who runs RCA, you know, shout out to Monty Lippman, who's been so supportive of me over the years.
01:17:20
I don't have any problem with the major labels, but, you know, it's like saying that there can't be private schools because, you know, the world should only be made up of PS 121s,
01:17:34
you know, and I'm a kid who went actually to private school and benefited from smaller students per class and greater one on one time and mentorship and tutorship from teachers and whatnot.
01:17:48
So while we're reflecting on this instance, I think you might be missing the forest for the trees because, why is Usher signed to me?
01:17:59
Usher had an incredible year this year after I'm seeing you guys.
01:18:02
I'm going to Barclays Arena to see him for his second Soul Dot Night this week, but he's had, this is his sixth Soul Dot Night in New York doing arena this year.
01:18:11
This guy was the first independent artist to ever play the Super Bowl.
01:18:14
You know how crazy that is?
01:18:16
The first independent artist ever played the Super Bowl, 129 million people watch the halftime show.
01:18:26
It was the most watch halftime show in history and the most watch TV moment in history next to the 1969 moon landing and he's an independent artist.
01:18:32
Wow, Snoop Dogg, star of the Olympics of summer, arguably one of the top pop culture zeitgeist figures of 2024 is independent in signed to Gamma,
01:18:45
Usher signed to Gamma.
01:18:47
Why are we getting these artists?
01:18:49
Why is sexy red signed to us, sexy red, billboard released their list early this year of top female rappers, Nicki Minaj, number one,
01:19:00
sexy red, number two, what?
01:19:04
And by the way, shout out to female rap this year, that had the biggest year in history in a genre that has been built on misogyny.
01:19:15
And these women are coming through with force and might and deserve the acknowledgement of the industry because what they're doing artistically, to me, while we're talking about legal suits.
01:19:27
That's more interesting to me.
01:19:29
What glow is doing?
01:19:30
What lotto is doing?
01:19:32
What ice spice is doing?
01:19:34
What Nikki's doing?
01:19:35
What doja cats doing?
01:19:36
And of course, what gamma sexy red is doing.
01:19:39
Given this, given the success of all those artists you named who I think we can all agree great years, on a great run, the amount of female rap talent, the diversity of female rap talent,
01:19:49
you know, maybe at a peak right now, and yet we still have this glut, aless rap stars.
01:19:58
We think of from 10, 15 years ago at this point, yeah, they're not being streamed in the same way, Drake and Kendrick and Travis Scott and Nicki Minaj and Kanye West artists like that like red or coming up,
01:20:11
Tommy Richman, also independent.
01:20:14
These artists are people, people like discovery.
01:20:17
They like being able to flex on their friends and say, I know about something you don't know about.
01:20:22
I use New York Times cooking at least three to four times a week.
01:20:26
I love sheep pan bibimbap.
01:20:28
It's been 35 minutes.
01:20:29
It was 35 minutes.
01:20:30
The cucumber salad, the soy, ginger and garlic.
01:20:33
Oh my god, that is just to die for it.
01:20:35
This turkey chili has over 17,000 five star ratings.
01:20:40
So easy.
01:20:41
So delicious.
01:20:42
The instructions are so clear, so simple and it just works.
01:20:46
Hey, it's Eric Kim from New York Times cooking.
01:20:49
Come cook with us.
01:20:50
Go to nytcooking.com.
01:20:54
Here's a question about discovery.
01:20:56
There is so much to discover these days, and this is at the beginning of our conversation.
01:21:01
We're talking about hits without stars and stars without hits, right?
01:21:05
Every day I can go on the internet and discover something.
01:21:08
That's right.
01:21:09
Make it harder for a thing that I discover, an artist who is a discovered artist to have long lasting success because there was more competition for the eardrum than there ever has been before.
01:21:23
And I think where Joe was going was, you have this generation of stars, whether it's future and Travis, whether it's Drake and Kendrick.
01:21:30
I think we still talk about them like they're new, new on the block, but by the way, they're the elders.
01:21:36
There's not a career, but there's nobody you're replacing.
01:21:39
There's not that generational level of who's replacing those folks that we don't see that just yet.
01:21:47
And I wonder why that is.
01:21:48
Is that because the streaming economy is so diversified that it's easy to get noticed for one thing, but it's hard to get noticed for five things.
01:21:56
Is it because there's more competition?
01:21:58
Is it because it is a legendary year for women in rap, but having so many people to choose from has made it hard for people to form firm fan bonds with one or two or three individuals?
01:22:14
I think I think one of the things that this is, I've given a lot of thought to what you ask.
01:22:22
And this is my reflection on it for what it's worth.
01:22:23
It could be wrong.
01:22:25
I think when we started Apple Music, me, Eddie Q, Jimmy Iveane and Trent Rezner, we sat down the four of us to really design what the service is today,
01:22:36
along with Robert Conjrick.
01:22:39
And I was the kid in the room who was precocious and said the things that were bold and offensive.
01:22:46
And one of the things that I said was I think that I think, I think this is right after the U2, I've put on everyone's phones, too, but like my first day on the job,
01:22:56
wild time.
01:22:57
Wild time.
01:22:58
Wild time.
01:22:59
Wallace, Wallace, Wallace, Sarah, don't put things on my phone.
01:23:04
Did you review that album?
01:23:06
I didn't.
01:23:07
No, I definitely learned how to take it off my phone.
01:23:11
Sorry, Bob.
01:23:13
Yeah.
01:23:14
What happened in that period of time and the way that we were able to build streaming and market it as a new medium, my perspective was that live mix tapes,
01:23:24
my mix tapes, that Piff, SoundCloud, were all platforms that we should siphon off of and move off of.
01:23:36
So what that did is redirected the fire hose from these free consumption, lawless platforms that weren't monetizing music, but certainly were offering a development for these artists.
01:23:48
And teaching fans how to consume.
01:23:50
And teaching fans have a consume tool.
01:23:52
Yeah.
01:23:53
And they were on the clock, a streaming so all so what happened then is that everything became and has become super commercialized.
01:24:04
And I think there's a yearning.
01:24:07
Not I think I know because I have certain friends who are artists.
01:24:10
I ran in a quaybo the other day.
01:24:11
He told me this too.
01:24:13
Number of them have told me this.
01:24:16
There's just no G League in the music business anymore.
01:24:18
There's no one to take it back to.
01:24:21
So everything is like, right, bad and bougie came out on SoundCloud before it came out on Spotify.
01:24:26
Zero to 100 came out in SoundCloud, started from the bottom came out on SoundCloud.
01:24:30
You know, Trav released his first music on SoundCloud.
01:24:33
I saw a complex post yesterday with Billy Isle is talking about ocean eyes and all that.
01:24:38
Yeah.
01:24:39
I came SoundCloud made me basically.
01:24:41
And it was the same for that Piff.
01:24:44
It was the same for live mix tapes like, you know, future probably I wouldn't put a 56 months on like that Piff or something.
01:24:51
And it doesn't mix tapes before that.
01:24:53
Yeah.
01:24:54
So now you put out a mixtape and you got bloggers that are talking about it a couple days later.
01:25:01
Joe and John just dropped the mixtape.
01:25:05
It's looking like it's going to do 13,000 in the first week W or L.
01:25:09
Yeah.
01:25:10
Yeah.
01:25:11
It's like, how am I supposed to be confident like L for the record?
01:25:15
Yeah.
01:25:16
You look at the comments and it's all L, L, L and then you come on the show and read my review of it.
01:25:25
Sorry.
01:25:26
Yeah.
01:25:27
The way the new review is not your beautifully written and crafted piece.
01:25:32
It's the comment section on the Twitch stream.
01:25:34
But I'm so actually intrigued to hear you underscore that because it really ties back to the first thing we talked about, which is a and R.
01:25:43
So we're talking about parallel tools and paths of development.
01:25:48
So on the one hand, you have labels that are under valuing A and R.
01:25:54
You also have artists who by the time they arrive at a label, and I say this with affection, you may think they don't need A and R.
01:26:01
And you got a system that is now so hyper commercialized that people feel the need to buy streams because they feel like everybody is like watching what they're wearing.
01:26:11
You know what I mean?
01:26:12
So buying streams is real.
01:26:13
You're saying?
01:26:14
Yeah.
01:26:15
I'm here.
01:26:16
I'm here.
01:26:17
I'm here.
01:26:18
I'm here.
01:26:19
I hear that that's taking place.
01:26:23
We don't do that at gamma at all.
01:26:26
And I feel like ultimately everything is so hyper commercialized that it's just it's not fun.
01:26:34
And it also destroys the confidence of artists that want to release a mixtape that don't want to be have that mixtape judge as a W R and L.
01:26:42
It's just I'm just releasing art to the world.
01:26:45
I'm giving you a gift.
01:26:46
It's not I'm not trying to have you judge me.
01:26:49
It's a work in progress.
01:26:50
I'm going to have you judge me on like whether it's sold 13,000 of the first week or went number one or it's viral or any of that shit like and and and to have such a spotlight and such a microscope on a business now with art art.
01:27:05
So you think we're not letting our stars develop like that's why they're not.
01:27:09
That's why it's harder to build a high level star because they're under the spotlight the whole time and expected to deliver.
01:27:16
I mean, shout out to shout out to Justin and Imrod man at Island.
01:27:20
These guys signed Sabrina Carpenter, but that's not her first album short sweet six six album.
01:27:27
Six.
01:27:28
So what album was what I think it I think the dooby brothers were like on their fifth album by the time they got to like minute by minute and yeah, what a fool will be different and different,
01:27:39
you know, rock doc, yeah, love that top.
01:27:45
What a what a absolute legend and and I love that I love that dog.
01:27:51
I watch it the other night.
01:27:52
Hair goal.
01:27:53
Is it multi-parter?
01:27:54
Is it just one part?
01:27:55
He's just one man.
01:27:56
Here's a question.
01:27:57
Rap in that 2016 2015 to 2017 era early adopter of streaming in part because of what you said, the consumer and the artists were both ready for it because they were putting out mix tapes.
01:28:09
They were they were doing unpaid streaming before they were doing they had they had interned at the streaming farms before turned professional.
01:28:15
That's right.
01:28:16
So they had this huge head start for many years.
01:28:19
Rap.
01:28:20
Obviously outpacing every other genre becoming the most consumed genre in the world still is via streaming.
01:28:25
Specifically.
01:28:26
Yeah.
01:28:27
Yeah, everything that we did.
01:28:28
We've seen a course correction there from the other genres pop has caught up country.
01:28:33
Yeah.
01:28:34
In the last three years.
01:28:35
Three times.
01:28:36
Yeah.
01:28:37
Artists like, you know, Luke Combs.
01:28:38
And more.
01:28:39
Yeah.
01:28:40
But also it is it is incredibly noteworthy when you talk about a record like last night Morgan Wallen.
01:28:45
Man, them 808's hit on that record.
01:28:48
Oh, yeah.
01:28:49
I think he's beat man with the hell.
01:28:51
Was it just a matter of time and teaching the fan bases that this is how we consume music now?
01:28:57
Like why why did rap get caught basically?
01:29:00
Was it because the sound was borrowed and the tricks were borrowed or was it?
01:29:03
Was it consumer facing or is it cultural?
01:29:06
Is it a reflection of Trump's America that, you know, before it was trapping now it's trap country?
01:29:13
Crank.
01:29:14
Which they'll tell you they're making.
01:29:15
And you know, it's like, you know, I was in Nashville recently that's the dam in those conversations.
01:29:19
The people and also a lot of people who make those records make records for young folk too.
01:29:23
Yeah.
01:29:24
Did you know at the time that eventually these other genres were going to catch up or have you been surprised by the sort of reorienting of?
01:29:32
It was an inevitability.
01:29:33
It's all about staggered adoption and the area that I specifically wanted to go for first from a commercial perspective at the beginning was an audience that already had the understanding of what streaming was.
01:29:49
They were just doing it in areas where it wasn't paid.
01:29:52
So it was, how do you take these people who already have this understanding and know how a knowledge of what that is?
01:30:00
These habits.
01:30:01
Think you would move them to a platform that is new and exciting and they can still have the same habits, but they can have the habits and other favorite hours can get paid from their habits.
01:30:14
So it was just a matter of time that the other ones would catch up.
01:30:17
And there were various things along the way that I certainly did to market it to those other genres.
01:30:24
Taylor's 1989 live, live film that we did in Sydney was one that ultimately was like that was like the big first big pop thing.
01:30:34
Sean Parker's hipster international, by the way, was something that broke Lord very early on.
01:30:39
If you guys remember that, I did the first one of the first Apple music commercials that I did, which actually inspired us, Taylor and I to do the treadmill one was she wrote,
01:30:51
was the Kenny Chesney country commercial, the debut on the CMAs, which Anthony Mandler and I directed.
01:30:58
Yeah, you know, Brantley Gilbert, we did a commercial with him.
01:31:04
We were specifically doing things very much took a little longer to.
01:31:08
They took a little longer.
01:31:09
Just proud.
01:31:10
Yeah.
01:31:11
Yeah, because everyone was so because in country, what was the version of that depth if it didn't exist?
01:31:17
Target.
01:31:18
Yeah.
01:31:19
Exactly.
01:31:20
Exactly.
01:31:21
So, so the habit wasn't formed yet like it was in the hip hop genre.
01:31:26
So therefore, it took a moment for everyone to become acquainted with respect to the platform.
01:31:31
And also, when you're looking at this current generation of stars, you know, like, you know, your wall and earnest, hardy, etc.
01:31:37
Those are also people who grew up on rat music.
01:31:40
It's actually different generation than the stars in the 90s of the 2000s.
01:31:45
These artists in many ways, they're children of country, but they're also children of everything that we know.
01:31:49
They don't ask you about.
01:31:50
They're their fans.
01:31:51
Yeah.
01:31:52
They know how to get an 808.
01:31:53
They learn from Drake.
01:31:54
Yeah.
01:31:55
Like, they basically listened to Drake in 2012 and 14 and then we're like, okay, I'm going to make country.
01:32:00
I'm going to make country album.
01:32:01
I mean, yeah, his influence in that regard is quite something.
01:32:06
Yeah.
01:32:07
Everything from release schedule, by the way, from how consistently you release to sonic, you know, textures and aesthetic.
01:32:18
Yeah, the influence is unmistakable, unmistakable, excuse me.
01:32:21
Is there a threat in the music business this year that you didn't have a direct hand in that sparked envy in you or that you thought like this, this is really a way of the happening,
01:32:32
like 2025, I'm figuring out how we get involved here.
01:32:35
Like, what do you see, what do you see moving outside of yourself?
01:32:41
I'm such a fan of songwriting and the craftsmanship thereof.
01:32:44
And I think what Julian Bonetta and Amy Allen have done with and Sabrina have done is so great in pop because returning to witty,
01:32:55
witty clever pun and lyrics of all of that, I think it's just really, I think it's awesome and I think there could be more of it as well.
01:33:05
You know, I come from a school of working with Clive where I didn't even play him a song without having a lyric sheet.
01:33:13
And I just like counting cards, I can tell you whether a song is a hit or not, even sometimes even based on lyrics, she would not even hearing the song.
01:33:21
So that is how much I am in deep reverence of lyrics.
01:33:26
And seeing pop really embrace lyricism again on that level and win at it is something that I find hugely admirable, something that I've obviously succeeded with many times in my career.
01:33:38
And something that we're kind of, we are absolutely, I have, my pocket is loaded for 2025, man.
01:33:45
So, I would say that, but, you know, I'm more interested, man, in creating products with my artist, you know,
01:33:56
I would say I don't say more interested because it's sacrilege because I don't really feel like you're a children.
01:34:04
I love all my children.
01:34:05
I love a great song.
01:34:06
I love the A&R process really, truly, you know, but I also really love what we just created with Snoop, which was love child, to give you some perspective on that.
01:34:17
The first month of love child, the jury line that we just started with Snoop, the first month of monthly gross exceeds the monthly gross of the death row iconic catalog and more people should be streaming death row,
01:34:31
right?
01:34:32
And they have, it's gone up by 25 percent, it's gone up by 25 percent in the last 45 days as well, the death row catalog.
01:34:40
And on top of that, January and February for Valentine's Day and then Mother's Day is a really big jewelry moment as well, I might just set up a, yeah, I'm a diamond district office in a second.
01:34:50
You know what I mean?
01:34:51
Maybe you share space with Homer.
01:34:53
Yeah.
01:34:54
Totally.
01:34:55
But to answer your question about what will keep us from going down the same perilous path of our predecessors are more larger corporate predecessors.
01:35:08
I don't own ushers music.
01:35:10
I don't own the death row catalog and that therein lies rather, the difference.
01:35:17
And what is that free or free to them to do with you specifically?
01:35:22
It's just tough for me to look any of them in the face and say, I should own your, I should own your intellectual property.
01:35:31
We're in long term partnerships.
01:35:34
So we are the Guggenheim and I am the custodian of these paintings and I'm looking after this art.
01:35:42
But at the end of the day, it's out on loan from the owner and they trust, and me and they trust in us as a company to be the custodians,
01:35:53
to be the shepherds of the art.
01:35:56
And that's what makes it a huge honor.
01:36:00
That's what makes it a huge honor.
01:36:02
It's also work with some of these greats and to have had a touch on their careers at these moments where they're ushers and snooper having inconceivable runs right now and having this renaissance that we've played a very integral part in and I'm hoping to do so as well with Mariah in 2025 is exciting because once a threat always a threat and that's,
01:36:26
that's the way I see us as different, you know.
01:36:29
I think some of the fights that you're alluding to is about ultimately who owns the music and the repertoire and the licensing and this and that and I'm so happy not to be ensconced in any of that with any of our artists because they own their music.
01:36:43
There's no lack of clarity.
01:36:46
No lack of clarity.
01:36:47
And you know, the licenses go on for long period of time will be in partnership for a long period of time, but the trust is mutually there.
01:36:55
And that's when you talk about independence and their independent artists, that's really what you're referring to.
01:37:01
Correct.
01:37:02
Yeah.
01:37:03
Like they have access to your resources, which are significant, but they are own, but when you say independence, where you're underscoring is that they retain ownership of their intellectual property.
01:37:17
That's what it is.
01:37:18
Without a doubt.
01:37:19
Yeah.
01:37:20
Absolutely.
01:37:21
And for us is to be able to say that hand on heart, look you in the eye and to be able to say that that is the position that I took.
01:37:31
You know, maybe certain people, investors may think that it's maybe a little bit too benevolent, you know, but ultimately,
01:37:42
you know, more artists come to our shores because we stand for that and we stand for transparency.
01:37:52
We pay our artists once a week in certain cases, like Russ, who's an artist of ours.
01:37:59
And across the board, we pay everybody once a month as distinguished from semi annually in the cases of the corporations and companies that you're talking about.
01:38:11
And like punctually on the 15th, pay them once a month.
01:38:16
And in certain beta cases once a week.
01:38:19
So the transparency is as such where that's the revolution of it all and the things that I'm sitting, I sit on a board of a company called Service Now, which is an enterprise software company, 232 billion in market cap today,
01:38:30
more valuable in Disney, more valuable in Spotify, more valuable in the universal, more valuable than Nike, more valuable than DDS, more valuable in a lot of companies.
01:38:41
And what I've learned at that company with respect to JNAI, Agent AI, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole with you on this, but we're applying that to what we're doing as well.
01:38:53
And I'm not just doing it from a place of like, oh, this is the catchy thing, the fattish thing, the trendy thing of the moment, sit on the board of a company where we actually do this and that from that perspective.
01:39:03
And that to me is our competitive advantage, you know, and what that's resulted in for us as a company as Gamma this year is we are the number one independent company in music from a radio,
01:39:16
airplane market share perspective.
01:39:19
And that is a flex because what I heard when we were about to launch the company is they can't do what we can do in radio, they can't do that.
01:39:27
We own that.
01:39:28
We own they they'll never be able to compete.
01:39:30
Okay.
01:39:31
We're number eight overall now.
01:39:33
We're beating certain companies that are established companies and key genres like Urban and Rhythm and R&B, shout out to RCA, the number one and R&B, we're number two overall and R&B, we're number eight overall,
01:39:45
but we're number one independent overall within less than two years.
01:39:50
And this also goes to what we were talking about when talking about in the Apple era and that sort of like disruption era, the sort of big picture goal.
01:39:59
And again, spoken or unspoken to your phone is the disaggregation of the set of services that major labels have historically provided artists and a re and maybe creating a new batch of services,
01:40:13
a different batch.
01:40:15
That does seem to be the long tail.
01:40:18
Yeah.
01:40:19
Whether it's from looking back at the majors or gamma looking back at Apple and streaming ecosystem, the disaggregation of the prior system seems to be the goal of the new goal of the new company.
01:40:33
And we just launched a cosmetic line with sexy red, called sexy gloss.
01:40:37
I'm sure you've probably seen it trending as Scott's a bear bag.
01:40:40
I should've known, we got glam before the show, where's that nut shade?
01:40:50
But you know, to be able to help to facilitate for an artist to achieve her dream like that and again, jewelry and other products, which I can't talk about that we've got coming out next year,
01:41:01
that's why we're not a label.
01:41:03
We are an ideas company in service to the ideas and reverence of the ideas.
01:41:09
And I think, I think that makes us incredibly distinct and different speaking of distinct and different.
01:41:19
You want to eat a snack?
01:41:20
Yeah.
01:41:21
Wow.
01:41:22
So Larry, as we explained to you before the show, everyone who sits on this couch, this is it's mandatory.
01:41:33
We gave you an array of snacks from all over the globe, actually, including the flight that I took this morning.
01:41:38
We gave showed you an array of snacks and I have to be honest, you picked the most deviant option.
01:41:45
I've been trying to get John to eat these first six months, probably.
01:41:48
I cannot believe you pointed at this bag and said this.
01:41:53
So if you really want to know it's in Larry Jackson's mind, he chose it.
01:41:58
He chose this.
01:41:59
I did.
01:42:00
He pulled the chester's frieze ranch flavored, it spoke to me.
01:42:06
We've talked about this before on the show for close listeners, I'll remember that I had to explain to John's chesters is the diffusion line of Cheetos, same same same character,
01:42:18
silk chester.
01:42:19
But this is this is the mark by Mark Jacobs of Cheetos.
01:42:23
Can chester get a gambadilla?
01:42:26
One make him like with MCS Gatka.
01:42:29
Yes, exactly.
01:42:30
Yes, exactly.
01:42:31
He ran featuring chester.
01:42:32
Look, leave wraps next alone.
01:42:33
That's all I don't know who owns wraps.
01:42:36
But I don't think it's you.
01:42:37
I think master P.O.
01:42:38
is wrapped.
01:42:38
He's got some handed wraps.
01:42:40
We've them alone.
01:42:41
All right, we're going to try these.
01:42:42
These are ranch flavored.
01:42:43
John doesn't like ranch flavor.
01:42:45
No, I like ranch flavor.
01:42:46
Wow.
01:42:47
What's your stance on ranch as a flavor profile?
01:42:50
I like ranch.
01:42:51
Brely.
01:42:52
I like ranch.
01:42:53
You like it as a dip?
01:42:54
You like it as an artificial flavor?
01:42:55
I like it as an artificial flavor.
01:42:58
That's what drew me.
01:42:59
I feel like I don't even know you.
01:43:03
I just don't believe a word.
01:43:05
And did you peg me as, baby?
01:43:06
I just saw.
01:43:07
I literally had vegan barbecue.
01:43:09
You got all the other flavors.
01:43:11
You got all the flavors, gummy bears.
01:43:13
All right.
01:43:14
Take as many as you want.
01:43:15
Let me see what the expiration date is.
01:43:18
We don't do it.
01:43:19
We don't follow expiration date.
01:43:21
You don't, because expiration date is April 23rd, 2024, but I'm still alive.
01:43:24
That's how you know they're good.
01:43:25
That's it.
01:43:26
They're marinated.
01:43:27
Are you a wine guy?
01:43:28
Yeah.
01:43:29
Well, how could this be any different?
01:43:31
Man, this is nice, man.
01:43:32
All right.
01:43:33
All right.
01:43:34
Man.
01:43:35
You can see the whole bag.
01:43:36
I never want to be there.
01:43:37
You never going to make its way, John.
01:43:38
These are good.
01:43:39
Oh, God.
01:43:40
These are good.
01:43:41
You got it.
01:43:42
Do a couple of cough drops or breathments before you talk to Usher.
01:43:46
Do me a favor.
01:43:47
Don't hit Usher with this.
01:43:48
No breath.
01:43:49
Okay.
01:43:50
I'm just going to, I have to start.
01:43:52
I have not bitten into one.
01:43:54
The smell.
01:43:55
Strong.
01:43:56
It's good.
01:43:57
Owners.
01:43:58
It's violent.
01:43:59
It's garlic and.
01:44:00
It's violent.
01:44:01
It is aggressive.
01:44:02
You don't like garlic and onion?
01:44:04
You know Italian.
01:44:05
Not in that part of my nose at all.
01:44:08
Okay.
01:44:09
It's a little, I thought it was going to be more like a tocky.
01:44:12
No, they're going to be crispy or airy.
01:44:16
It's airy.
01:44:17
But you know, it's, um, I think it's good.
01:44:20
Okay.
01:44:21
I'm going to be honest, I'm on board.
01:44:22
Yeah.
01:44:23
Yeah.
01:44:24
I'm on board.
01:44:25
I think this is inspiring me.
01:44:26
This feels like a product we need to create.
01:44:27
Yeah.
01:44:28
So something about the, the, the fominess carries the flavor really well.
01:44:32
I love these.
01:44:34
These are, they're sturdy.
01:44:36
Yeah.
01:44:37
A lot of times with a thing like this, which like a cheese duel or something, when it collapses with the bite.
01:44:42
Yeah.
01:44:43
A lot of times when it collapses, it's really unsatisfied because you go from something really, really steady and firm, something that's like powder this.
01:44:52
It's process.
01:44:53
It is process.
01:44:54
Yeah.
01:44:55
Oh, man.
01:44:56
What do you think?
01:44:57
What do you think?
01:44:58
Well, I just want to do maybe like 10 seconds, 15 seconds of ASMR.
01:45:03
Let's go for it.
01:45:04
And maybe your audio guys got, um, tell me, bring up your little bit.
01:45:09
A lot of base in that, too.
01:45:19
Hopefully someone finds out aroused arousing.
01:45:22
Yeah.
01:45:23
Um, okay.
01:45:24
Um, I'm going to, I'm going to go first because I was the biggest skeptic.
01:45:28
That's, you know, it is a seven and three quarters.
01:45:30
Seven and three quarter.
01:45:31
I've never done a quarter.
01:45:32
I'm habs.
01:45:33
I'm going to go seven and three quarters.
01:45:35
Seven point seven five.
01:45:36
Seven point seven five.
01:45:37
You know, can I share with you just a quick story?
01:45:39
Because we, I spoke about him a couple times.
01:45:40
Also, I hope you see that I'm speaking about the ranch chesters with as much love as I would dedicate my, any album that I write about it.
01:45:48
And I was, and I was going to say that, too, one of the things, one of the areas that speaking of A&R and I'll pass this on, um, bequeath this as an A&R tool to the up and coming.
01:45:59
The way that we graded songs, where you grade, just graded those chesters, we did that all the time when we graded a new song.
01:46:06
So if I was in a meeting with Clive, um, he'd want to know whether or not a song was a 10, a 9, an 8, a 7, a 6 or a 5, but there were various decimal points along the way.
01:46:19
So song could be a 7, 7, 5, 8 is a top 10, 9 is a top 5, 10 is a number 1, 7, 7, 5, just barely misses the mark of being a top 10.
01:46:30
And if I was trying to shoot him a signal in a meeting about the song, well, the song right it was there and they didn't know, and I want to tell him the song was an 8, just like a baseball scene, we're like, go like this.
01:46:40
Yep.
01:46:41
So I say that to say, yeah, I say that to say, okay, all right, it's an 8, okay, yeah, I'm going to say 8, 5, wow, 8, 5,
01:46:51
I think it's a really, really, really, and what I would really like to do is have a bag of the hot fries and a bag of the ranch fries and sort of double of each I will say the thing,
01:47:03
the thing that is really most surprising about these to me, they're utilitarian, effective, they're not decorative.
01:47:12
They're absolutely every like centimeter of it works, it's a, it's a, it is a strong blue collar, effective snap,
01:47:23
I stand correct, welcome to the dark side, I accept the ranch powder into my life.
01:47:28
What?
01:47:29
What an episode.
01:47:30
Great.
01:47:31
Larry Jackson.
01:47:32
Great.
01:47:33
Thank you.
01:47:34
Thank you.
01:47:35
Thanks for having me.
01:47:36
I love you both.
01:47:37
I love you both.
01:47:38
This is an honor.
01:47:39
I just, I'm honored.
01:47:40
This is, you know, this is the two of you.
01:47:41
This is the New York Times.
01:47:42
This is pop cast, which I listened to all the time.
01:47:43
Maybe we'll do part two this time next year.
01:47:44
We got a lot of games.
01:47:45
Well, we were people picked up a lot of game from this episode.
01:47:48
A lot of games.
01:47:49
A lot of games.
01:47:50
A lot of games in here.
01:47:51
So I bequeathed.
01:47:53
Every episode of pop cast is at ny times dot com slash pop cast.
01:47:58
Our producer in the room is so you're okay.
01:48:00
Our producer at home is Pedro Zato met supper media.
01:48:03
We'll be back next week.
01:48:04
