We're Not Marketers

AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.What to expect while listening...Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit dealsEric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existedGab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speedWhy competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinkingThe four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationshipsWhy CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X'sZach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertiseIf you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.Timestamps02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel 07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next SeasonHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.She also share knowledge on:The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMsWhy hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategyTactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagersPractical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance workIf you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡Timestamps:02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling32:17 The Role of External Validation34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying ConnectedShow Notes: Alex’s LinkedIn  Virdical WebsiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀Timestamps:00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin01:26 The Role of Product Marketers04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B27:15 Positioning and Buying Process28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service30:28 Understanding the Four Cs32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis41:12 Branding and Credibility45:51 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsShow Notes:Jon’s LinkedInIn the Kitchen Jon 4 C framework on MiroHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil’s LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less. Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for themHow SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong jobHow to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.Show Notes00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds03:09 The Evolution of Marketing05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer10:03 Distribution First Mindset14:09 SEO and Product Marketing18:21 Investing in Content and SEO24:11 Effective Content Distribution31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation52:14 Final Thoughts and Future PlansHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong? In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all. From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way. Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisionsThe 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battlesThe fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understandHow Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.Timestamps:00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson 01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing 04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing 10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing 14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews 23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics 30:24 Understanding Research Design 30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement 36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research 36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis 38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights 41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI 49:51 Effective Customer Conversations 57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact InformationShow Notes:"Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore Ryan Paul Gibson's "DIY Customer Investigation Guide" Eisenberg 95-5 Rule Research Ryan's LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.What you get when you listenWhy product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound roboticThe hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlookHow AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subredditWhy "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single timeThe counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging briefThe three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources26:16 Conclusion and Sign-OffWhy being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever beforeHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.We're covering:Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on RedditThe simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problemsThe contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguidedHow to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your networkIn this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content. She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults. Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.Timestamps:02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net WorthShow Notes:Tas LinkedInHer B2B website and landing page resource hub Tas Website Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing. Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversionsThe reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content "Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 monthsWhy most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silosThe uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel contentListen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.Timespan:02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find HerShow Notes: Lashay on LinkedInRob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing ContentExit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay LewisHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."In this episode, we're covering:How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to payThe "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growthWhy most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphsThe Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BSWhy writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneursHow Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeopleCheck out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps:01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)44:30 Closing Remarks and FarewellShow Notes:Ryan's LinkedInBlindspots on AmazonHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teamsThe one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your resultsThe critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers missHow to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediatelyIf you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences44:35 Final Thoughts and Key TakeawaysShow notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging FrameworksMessage Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about: ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!Timespan:00:59 Introducing the Guest02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights09:45 AI in Product Marketing20:45 Working with Sales Teams25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification29:01 The Buffet Analogy33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing48:04 Closing Remarks and FarewellShownotes:Follow Michelle on LinkedInGong.io (for sales call analysis) Perplexity AI (for deep research)Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator) BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency) Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation) Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥Timespan:00:00 Introduction to the Podcast00:16 Meet the Hosts00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy21:28 AI in Sales Enablement22:40 Impact Over Quantity23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth TipsShow Notes:Kyle's LinkedIn ProfileCopy.aiChristopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personasListen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧Timespan:00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts39:47 Final Thoughts and FarewellShow Notes:Chanel LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates. If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.What You’ll Learn in This Episode:→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers sayListen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsShow Notes:The Reeder WebsiteReed between the lines podcastDevin’s LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms. Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision. How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Episode Context01:32 Meet the Hosts01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset09:36 Sales and Client Management17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success51:50 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we’re covering:The importance of understanding your target audienceWhy research can help you communicate your product valueThe difference between storytelling and the formatChallenges of PMMs and if they are marketersCommon startup mistakes in messagingThe best time to drink beerSo grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel01:55 Diving into Product Marketing09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling46:24 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Peter’s LinkedInProduct Marketing NewsletterHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.