We're Not Marketers

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth.More from this convo...From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll" How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoiceThe strategic visibility system that changes everything Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming How to extract value from companies that don't value youTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days06:00 Corporate America Reality Check07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers09:00 The Crying on Calls Era11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed17:00 The Strategic Visibility System19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins21:00 Worst Career Advice23:00 Budget Allocation Debates25:00 Personal Branding Strategy27:00 AI Impact on PMM29:00 The Newsletter Game31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time39:00 The April Dunford Model41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy45:00 Deep Coaching Approach47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough49:00 The Workout Analogy50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattieHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.More from this convo...Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) • The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn • How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant • Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem • The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing • How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance • The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise • The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) • Why more ads won't fix your broken positioningTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling06:00 The Minneapolis Connection07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros"09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories23:00 Budget Allocation Debates25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance31:00 SEO in the AI Age33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS35:00 Founding Prelude Agency37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue)45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue47:00 Small Wins Strategy49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix50:00 Channels vs. Foundations51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally52:00 Closing & Where to Find GarrettHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar? Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis. In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads. More on what we cover...• Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys" • The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it) • How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency • Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead) • The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses • Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems • Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second • The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients • How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant • The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship • Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly)Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everythingTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received26:00 Budget Allocation Debates28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise39:00Disagree and Commit PrincipleHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats any marketing framework. We talk anti-billionaire content, why brevity is the ultimate flex in marketing, and how the entire tech industry turned marketing into a commodity. Warning: This episode might make you quit your job or completely rethink your career—either way, you're welcome.What we cover: • Why Nick Power thinks 90% of marketers aren't actually marketing anymore • The shocking reason a LinkedIn influencer would delete his entire digital presence • How to fit an entire strategy into ONE SENTENCE (seriously) • Why your positioning docs are expensive PDFs nobody reads • The anti-billionaire marketing philosophy that's actually about mental health • What happens when you've never worked with a product marketer (spoiler: you survive) • The grind culture lie that's killing your creativity • Why running 5 miles beats any marketing framework • How to give readers "the gift of surprise" in every post • The real reason marketing became a commodity in techTimestamps 01:00 Hot Guest Introduction & Lower Case Legend02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:22 Nick's Controversial Take: "Very Few Marketers Are Marketers"03:00 The System Problem: Executors vs. Strategists04:00 Marketing as a Commoditized Craft05:00 Nick's Background: CPG to B2B Tech06:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins: Digital Presence vs. Family07:00 The Mixed Bag of Online Attention08:30 Zoom Calls vs. Person Captivity10:00 Content Strategy: Wake Up and Write11:30 LinkedIn Trolling & Negative Engagement13:00 Quitting Social Media Discussion15:00 The State of Marketing Salaries17:30 Marketing Budget Allocation Debate19:00 Personal Branding vs. Company Branding21:00 The Death of Blogging23:00 Keyword Strategy & SEO Reality Check25:00 Marketing Advice You'd Give Your Younger Self27:00 Worst Marketing Experience Stories29:00 Firing Yourself from Marketing31:00 Career Identity Crisis Discussion33:00 Breaking Down Nick's Content Strategy35:00 The Art of Brevity: One-Sentence Philosophy36:00 Anti-Billionaire Content Explained37:00 Late-Stage Capitalism & Grind Culture Critique38:00 Coping Mechanisms: Running, Music, Kids39:00 From Surf to Run: Finding Flow State40:00 Mental Health in Marketing41:00 Closing & Noun Project ShoutoutHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectivenessThe three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketerThe hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategiesWhy measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of timeThe incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROIActivity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matterIf you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures02:40 Origins of the Podcast03:37 The Role of Product Marketers07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging25:04 The Role of Customer Research30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?34:29 Creative Work and Measurement37:31 The Importance of Incrementality43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast PromotionSNOW NOTES:Pranav's LinkedIn ParamarkElena VernaStatistical significanceHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring. Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty. → Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in yearsIf you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.Timestamped00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers 02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event 04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them) 08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive 12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit 15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process 18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs 22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work 26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events 29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive 32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything 35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory 38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails) 42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and RealSHOW NOTES:Courage Is Calling" by Ryan HolidayHighline ConferenceDrive ConferenceWe're Not Marketers Event WaitlistHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.What to expect while listening...Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit dealsEric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existedGab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speedWhy competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinkingThe four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationshipsWhy CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X'sZach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertiseIf you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.Timestamps02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel 07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next SeasonHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.She also share knowledge on:The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMsWhy hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategyTactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagersPractical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance workIf you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡Timestamps:02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling32:17 The Role of External Validation34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying ConnectedShow Notes: Alex’s LinkedIn  Virdical WebsiteHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀Timestamps:00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin01:26 The Role of Product Marketers04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B27:15 Positioning and Buying Process28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service30:28 Understanding the Four Cs32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis41:12 Branding and Credibility45:51 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsShow Notes:Jon’s LinkedInIn the Kitchen Jon 4 C framework on MiroHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil’s LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less. Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for themHow SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong jobHow to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.Show Notes00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds03:09 The Evolution of Marketing05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer10:03 Distribution First Mindset14:09 SEO and Product Marketing18:21 Investing in Content and SEO24:11 Effective Content Distribution31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation52:14 Final Thoughts and Future PlansHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong? In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all. From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way. Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisionsThe 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battlesThe fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understandHow Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.Timestamps:00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson 01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing 04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing 10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing 14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews 23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics 30:24 Understanding Research Design 30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement 36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research 36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis 38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights 41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI 49:51 Effective Customer Conversations 57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact InformationShow Notes:"Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore Ryan Paul Gibson's "DIY Customer Investigation Guide" Eisenberg 95-5 Rule Research Ryan's LinkedInHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.What you get when you listenWhy product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound roboticThe hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlookHow AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subredditWhy "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single timeThe counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging briefThe three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources26:16 Conclusion and Sign-OffWhy being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever beforeHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.We're covering:Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on RedditThe simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problemsThe contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguidedHow to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your networkIn this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content. She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults. Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.Timestamps:02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net WorthShow Notes:Tas LinkedInHer B2B website and landing page resource hub Tas Website Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing. Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversionsThe reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content "Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 monthsWhy most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silosThe uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel contentListen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.Timespan:02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find HerShow Notes: Lashay on LinkedInRob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing ContentExit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay LewisHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."In this episode, we're covering:How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to payThe "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growthWhy most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphsThe Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BSWhy writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneursHow Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeopleCheck out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps:01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)44:30 Closing Remarks and FarewellShow Notes:Ryan's LinkedInBlindspots on AmazonHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teamsThe one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your resultsThe critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers missHow to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediatelyIf you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences44:35 Final Thoughts and Key TakeawaysShow notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging FrameworksMessage Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about: ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!Timespan:00:59 Introducing the Guest02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights09:45 AI in Product Marketing20:45 Working with Sales Teams25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification29:01 The Buffet Analogy33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing48:04 Closing Remarks and FarewellShownotes:Follow Michelle on LinkedInGong.io (for sales call analysis) Perplexity AI (for deep research)Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator) BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency) Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation) Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.